A True American!

[mrsleeve]

ok I could live with a few meaning less than 10 miles not 40 to 100 miles in. Shit the boarder patrol frequently harasses people in the bus and train stations in nearly every major city in the country for ID.

I think these road blocks in side that 10mi buffer would be acceptable and put forth all the wasted resources that they are using well away form the boarder along the actual boarder we would not be having this debate

[Ferdinand]

The fourth amendment prevents law enforcement from searching a car without cause.

Agreed.

There are circumstances the courts have upheld that give law enforcement the ability to do their jobs, i.e. if getting a warrant would be so time-consuming that it would allow evidence to escape the cop has a right to search your car. (If you smell like weed and get pulled over, the cop has the right to search your car based on the smell of weed on you.) It's called "exigent circumstances" I believe.

Also agreed.

However, in your example the car first had to have been pulled over for some other offence. Without probable cause, they have no authority to stop you in the first place.

The Homeland Security officers are not "cops". Their mandate, as immigration officials, is to search for illegal aliens. They can stop you if they suspect you of being an illegal alien, or of transporting illegal aliens. In the absence of probable cause, they need your consent to detain you. If they have neither probable cause, nor your consent, then they have no legal right to detain you.

In each of Terry's videos he is stopped by the Homeland Security officers for no reason at all. They politely ask him, a thousand times, if he's an American citizen. He responds by asking them why he's being detained. Eventually, they always let him go.

They already know he's an American citizen. Despite the fact that he has never agreed to show them ID, they already know his name. They ran his licence plates to find out who he is. And yet they still insist on playing this same game every time.

Also, his Miranda rights were not violated either, which is what I think you were getting at with the 4th amendment stuff. He was not interrogated. (He can only incriminate himself if he is being questioned with the purpose of accusing him with a crime. There's a list of 3 circumstances that must be met. I don't remember them well enough to post here, but look them up.)

Hey, I'm just a dumb Canadian. Why should I have to look up your laws for you. If you're trying to present a case here, look them up yourself!

The point is, he is not required to give any answers at all. The officers are required to prove that he has done something wrong. Innocent until proven guilty. By stopping him, they are implying that he's guilty of something, and inviting him to defend himself. Produce evidence that you're an American and we'll let you pass.

That's the sort of thing that your Constitution is supposed to prevent.

If they have no probable cause for stopping him, and he declines to answer questions and ignores their repeated invitations to submit to a voluntary search, then they have absolutely no right to detain him.

That is your Constitutional right. That is what it says in your Constitution, which your government is sworn to uphold. Your government, and your Homeland Security forces, are supposed to protect you from invasion by illegal aliens, like the Taliban, whose goal it is to overthrow your Constitution. Instead, you have government sponsored goon squads operating within your own borders who seem to be doing an even better job than the Taliban of terrorizing your citizens.

Lastly, the checkpoint is necessary to defend the borders from invasion, as set out in Section 4 of the constitution. I find it funny to think that people assume the entire physical border is protectable, and that once something/someone crosses the border they should have nothing to worry about.

Oh puhlease. This guy drives the same road to work and back every day. He never crosses the border. The checkpoint is 40 miles from the border. Why would Homeland Security think this man is "invading" your country?

Watch the other videos. Yes, he's being a dick about it. Yes, he could simply surrender his Constitutional rights as an American and voluntarily answer their stupid questions. Yes, he could also invite them into his vehicle to paw through his belongings and search his shorts everyday.

But, as an American he is supposed to be protected by your Constitution from such ridiculous abuse. Open your eyes. He is not the one invading your country. The Homeland Security goons are the ones invading your country.

If you're all so sure that Homeland Security has the right to detain and arrest someone simply for being a non-cooperative dick, don't you think they would have arrested this guy by now, or as Blunt suggested, shot him on the spot? I mean come on, the guy is practically begging for trouble. If they had any excuse at all, don't you think the officers would have long ago dragged him from his car and given him a well-deserved attitude adjustment?

Watch these other two clips involving other people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msFEj-UBU9Q

"If you're not an American citizen, that makes him harboring you a felon."

Huh? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Let's say I and my family are driving to Florida for a mid-winter break. Assuming I haven't already been placed on some blacklist for my comments here, let's say we are successfully permitted to cross the border from Canada into your charming country.

Now I could be stopped again anywhere up to 100 miles inside your borders and harassed by these goons? How am I, a Canadian citizen, supposed to reply to an idiotic statement like the one made by the officer in the clip above?

My car has Ontario licence plates. Not one of us in the car is an American citizen. Does that mean I am harbouring felons? What a crock of shit.

Okay, here's a much scarier video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFRObbSDDo

"Would you mind shutting the camera please?"
"You mind rolling down the window please?"
"Can you shut off the vehicle please ma'am?"
"If you don't mind shutting off the vehicle please, and come out please real quick."
"There should be no reason why the normal person wouldn't allow us to run checks on their identification to see if they happen to have a criminal history or anything else like that."
"Is there reason to believe that we do?"
"There is as of right now because you're not being cooperative."
...
"There's no difference that tells me as of right now that you're any different than anybody else that we've caught, that we have found drugs in the trunk, because they've been uncooperative. There is nothing for me right now to believe that you are no different than them."
"Allow us to run your checks, misunderstanding's over."
"If you're going to impede me from doing this, I'm going to take you out of the vehicle."
"There's nothing right now that tells me that you're not a criminal."
"Do I have to step out of the car?"
"Please step out of the car."
"In order allow me to search inside here..."
"I am not allowing you to search inside here."
"I have nothing right now that tells me you're either telling the truth or evading the truth."
"Would you please step out of the car sir, if not I'm going to bring you out of the car."

Note that during the entire confrontation, the officer never once says the guy is required to cooperate, or required to step out of the car. Because they have no probable cause for making the stop, the officer instead must obtain voluntary consent.

As the officer forcibly drags the man from the car he continues to say, "Please step out the car sir, I'd appreciate it. Okay thank you very much."

And with that the Gestapo has forcibly obtained "consent" to search the car, seize the video camera, and whatever else.

Since when is it considered acceptable for anyone to be arbitrarily pulled over and forced to prove that you're not a criminal?

And please, don't say that as long as you're not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about. Every time someone voices such an inane opinion, your democracy dies another small death as it continues its downward slide to becoming just another Taliban state.

[gwb72tii]

it's acceptable when the guy is a fuck trying to provoke exactly what happened
and if you can't see it, well, ........

[uofom3]

it's acceptable when the guy is a fuck trying to provoke exactly what happened
and if you can't see it, well, ........

exactly. I would have had a problem with it if the guy was being totally respectful and THEN they fucked with him.

[CorvallisBMW]

exactly. I would have had a problem with it if the guy was being totally respectful and then they fucked with him.

qft

[joshh]

It's not a double standard because it is not applied to the same type of law enforcement,

It's the law and it's being violated by our government, why does that not sink in for you?

This was not at the border, this was on a public road.

THAT'S WHY IT'S A DOUBLE STANDARD. "Types" of law enforcement....please explain would you.
So it's ok to do at the border but not ok to do it miles from the border. Ok Mr. Slippery slope.

[Ferdinand]

exactly. I would have had a problem with it if the guy was being totally respectful and THEN they fucked with him.

You guys have your heads you so far up your asses, it's amazing.

You think this is just a matter of respect?!?

If someone gets raped, it's only a crime to you if the victim was being respectful before getting raped? But if the victim "asked for it" by being disrespectful, then it's all okay if (s)he gets raped?!?

Your Constitutional rights apply equally to ALL Americans, whether you're black or white or even Hispanic, male of female, polite or even a disrespectful dick. You are ALL entitled to the same rights. Your law enforcement officers are bound to operate under those rules. The moment things cease to operate like this, that's when anarchy starts.

If it boils down to a mere contest of who is showing respect, then the guys carrying the machine guns and wearing the swastika uniforms are always going to win at that game.

Someday soon, they'll starting knocking on your door, asking your "permission" to search your house. Are you going to meekly step aside? You'll say yes sir, sure sir, I'm an American citizen with nothing to hide, therefore I have no objection to you searching my house, or my car.

After you have volunteered your consent to a search it'll be too late for you if they find the porn stored on your computer, and you'll get arrested because of some right-wing fanatical religious leader who has decided that his Bible makes it illegal for you to view porn.

Your neighbours, hiding behind their curtains, will wonder, when the nazis asked your permission to search your belongings, why didn't you simply say, "no"? Didn't you know that unless they have probable cause or a warrant to search your car, it's still your Constitutional right to say, "no".

Once all Americans have been conditioned to believe that it's "disrespectful" to stand up for your Constitutional rights, then you're truly fucked. By then it'll be too late.

Evidently, it's already too late.

Apparently everyone already believes that only criminals ever insist on having their Constitutional rights respected. If you've done nothing wrong, have nothing to hide, then why would you need to ask the law enforcement types to respect your rights. Obviously you wouldn't need a lawyer to speak for you unless you're guilty of something. If they ask for your permission to search your car, obviously you must be a criminal if you refuse to give consent to a search. And therefore, since you're obviously a criminal, and a disrespectful dick to boot, suddenly the Homeland Security goons think it's okay to drag you from your car?

Once everyone has accepted this to be normal behaviour, it won't be long at all before the rest of you sheep meekly accept to sit at the back of the bus, because the front of the bus will be reserved exclusively for Homeland Security officers. Anyone with enough balls to question such unfair treatment, the very rare brave Rosa Parks amongst you, will be given the treatment suggested by your champion Blunt and "killed on the spot".

The remainder of you worms won't mind being enslaved like this, because as long as you're always respectful to your superiors, clicking your heels and saying "Sieg Heil", as long as you haven't broken any laws like trying to sit at the front of the bus when you're proper place is at the back, you'll have nothing at all to worry about. Everything will be just fine. Really it will.

[Kilomph]

Damn Ferdinand, you're more of an American than most here. And yes, Blunts a complete moron.

I think it's safe to say:

/thread.

[Schniddy]

Who's the moron. The ones comparing this to rape victims, or the ones going by the the evidence?

</thread> was done a few pages ago whenever everything was sorted out, not when your friend started talking about rape victims.

Misinformation and ignorance is destroying this country.

[blunttech]

Damn Ferdinand, you're more of an American than most here. And yes, Blunts a complete moron.

I think it's safe to say:

/thread.

as much as i hate to admit it... i think this is a true statement. as it seems the majority of americans are brainless dolts and its getting worse by the day.
look who the majority elected into the office of the presidency . the long legged mack daddy himself. barrack white trash obama

[joshh]

You guys have your heads you so far up your asses, it's amazing.

You think this is just a matter of respect?!?

If someone gets raped, it's only a crime to you if the victim was being respectful before getting raped? But if the victim "asked for it" by being disrespectful, then it's all okay if (s)he gets raped?!?

Your Constitutional rights apply equally to ALL Americans, whether you're black or white or even Hispanic, male of female, polite or even a disrespectful dick. You are ALL entitled to the same rights. Your law enforcement officers are bound to operate under those rules. The moment things cease to operate like this, that's when anarchy starts.

If it boils down to a mere contest of who is showing respect, then the guys carrying the machine guns and wearing the swastika uniforms are always going to win at that game.

Someday soon, they'll starting knocking on your door, asking your "permission" to search your house. Are you going to meekly step aside? You'll say yes sir, sure sir, I'm an American citizen with nothing to hide, therefore I have no objection to you searching my house, or my car.

After you have volunteered your consent to a search it'll be too late for you if they find the porn stored on your computer, and you'll get arrested because of some right-wing fanatical religious leader who has decided that his Bible makes it illegal for you to view porn.

Your neighbours, hiding behind their curtains, will wonder, when the nazis asked your permission to search your belongings, why didn't you simply say, "no"? Didn't you know that unless they have probable cause or a warrant to search your car, it's still your Constitutional right to say, "no".

Once all Americans have been conditioned to believe that it's "disrespectful" to stand up for your Constitutional rights, then you're truly fucked. By then it'll be too late.

Evidently, it's already too late.

Apparently everyone already believes that only criminals ever insist on having their Constitutional rights respected. If you've done nothing wrong, have nothing to hide, then why would you need to ask the law enforcement types to respect your rights. Obviously you wouldn't need a lawyer to speak for you unless you're guilty of something. If they ask for your permission to search your car, obviously you must be a criminal if you refuse to give consent to a search. And therefore, since you're obviously a criminal, and a disrespectful dick to boot, suddenly the Homeland Security goons think it's okay to drag you from your car?

Once everyone has accepted this to be normal behaviour, it won't be long at all before the rest of you sheep meekly accept to sit at the back of the bus, because the front of the bus will be reserved exclusively for Homeland Security officers. Anyone with enough balls to question such unfair treatment, the very rare brave Rosa Parks amongst you, will be given the treatment suggested by your champion Blunt and "killed on the spot".

The remainder of you worms won't mind being enslaved like this, because as long as you're always respectful to your superiors, clicking your heels and saying "Sieg Heil", as long as you haven't broken any laws like trying to sit at the front of the bus when you're proper place is at the back, you'll have nothing at all to worry about. Everything will be just fine. Really it will.

Yes, yes we should all fight against the man ALL THE TIME. Because god only knows that a cop asking if you're an American is EXACTLY the same as a house search or rape. Get your head out of your ass.

[napabavarian]

[joshh]

Yes! That's one way to derail a thread.

[blunttech]

wow thats a nice hinder

[Ferdinand]

Who's the moron. The ones comparing this to rape victims, or the ones going by the the evidence?

What evidence?

Misinformation and ignorance is destroying this country.

Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing.

Pay attention here. I'll try to type real s-l-o-w-l-y for ya, so maybe even you can keep up.

To conduct a search of your car, the Homeland Security people need to have either probable cause, or your consent. It's that simple.

Their mandate is to search for illegal immigrants. Period.

Absent probable cause, or your consent, they cannot detain you longer than it takes to briefly peer in your windows to check if there are a dozen wet Mexicans hiding on the floor.

Refusal to give consent to a search is NOT grounds for probable cause.