Military

[Hallen]

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep.

Slow down there cowboy. Those statements there really show your ignorance and biases towards the military.

We are taught to obey the commands of our commanders. We respect the chain of command. We cannot question the legal orders of our commanders (outside certain extremely rare circumstances), or job is to do or die. It is an honor to serve and the biggest burden you will ever carry.

However, there is NOTHING in a military command that orders you to vote one way or another. There are no politics. You can have your own opinion. Soldiers are human and even though they have fewer rights than many convicted and incarcerated criminals, we are still free people. Our soldiers are taught to think for themselves and to innovate. "Adapt and overcome" is our motto. That is one of the reasons we are the best in the world. Our soldiers do think for themselves. You can't just turn that stuff off and turn into an automaton. We don't want that type in the military anyway.

To suggest that because we respect authority (and trust me, that is very relative) does not mean that we take everything "they" say without question. That is one of the stupidest statements I have heard in a long while. (BTW, "they" is very undefined).

If my commander orders me to take that hill, then that is what we do. If my commander orders me to believe that Aliens from Planet X are going to destroy the world in 2012, then I ignore him. It is asinine to believe that military training removes intelligence and free will from a person. It is the ultimate form of free will in that you volunteer to obey the legal commands of your superiors because you understand that you are the protector of the nation.

It is a very good thing that soldiers are not sheep as you describe. If we were, then you would be wearing a swastika right now or listening to your political officer teach you all about the evils of having free will. Go ahead, hold onto your opinion, voice them where you want. We protect that freedom for you. Exercise it. It doesn't mean that you are right. It also doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. And, it also doesn't mean that some tired soldier doesn't bust your chops when you say it. After All, how bad could it hurt to be hit by a sheep.

Soldiers are taught to lead the way, be independent and yes, to follow orders. But orders are generally very vague. It is up to you to take care of the rest.

Now, if you want to badmouth the military, please, join up. Do your stint honorably and then blast away. You will be a better man for the experience.

[BigWaveDave]

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this post? A soldier is telling me that I don't have my own opinions and that I can't form a single thought for myself? You don't have your own opinions. You are in college and have never experienced the World for yourself.

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?We do allow for discussion and debate in the barracks actually. It stimulates the mind and gets people focused on what they are doing and get this, the big one, Why. No they did not ask, we were pretty much ready to go 6 months prior, did you not get the memo? Why would they put it to a vote, it was pretty unanimous. Especially being a 20 something surrounded by other 20 somethings ready to go.

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep. We are taught to respect authority and things that are to be questioned, we question. Some times we are given the "shut up and color" but we learn to see the bigger picture. Sheep we might be, because we all look the same most days. You sir are also a sheep. One that is educated.

Comrade,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before, but when you started speaking Marxism, etc, then mentioned your so called "credentials". You quickly became the puppet for your professors mouths. What I am basically saying is even though you find hypocrisy on my post by telling you that you need a real world view point, you, yourself have formed your own hypocrisy. This is why. You explain about communism and socialism etc, Correct? But have you ever lived there? Me, 8 years. East Germany, then West germany. Have you ever seen a society grow by your actions and your actions alone? I have personally removed Al Q, from a neighborhood and seen kids come back to the streets again. People go to Mosques again, shopping continues. Have you ever witnessed somebody vote for the FIRST time and be proud of it. Two thumbs right here. Have you ever protected something that was never yours?

But you have things I have never done. You have smoked weed. You have had your ideals changed by the people around you. You probably voted for the first Black president. Me, no. I have never smoked weed, I have never had my ideals changed based on reading and having a professor "school" me on the ins and outs of what his professor did the same of. I went to public school. I went to college, I went to basic training where I learned the chain of command. I am a soldier. Not a robot, I am a human and I still make judgment calls based on the welfare of my men then me. Do you make judgment calls for your subordinates? You have probably never led anything in your entire life that did not have safety precautions in place.

This is what I mean by your hypocrisy vs mine. You have somewhat of an education. Good on you. I never got the opportunity.

[BigWaveDave]

Can you ever make a valid point about anything? All your posts ever consist of is name calling. Aren't you pushing 60? I would hope that by the time I am 60 I will have moved past arguing with and insulting 20 somethings on an internet forum.

BTW, I do not go to Fairhaven but Bellingham in general has excellent weed.

Comrade,

Sure there are alot of things people can be doing. What could you be doing? You could be reading up on how Communism ruined Bud Day's life for a couple years. You could be out banging some college sweetheart you got. Maybe go to starbucks and get a sweet Latte and some Biscotti. But we are here, just having a discussion. I am not getting mad. I am actually reading what you are saying and actually thinking about it.

Just because he maybe 60 does not mean he does not have something great to offer you. Anyway...I know why I am here....Looking for the perfect e30 replacement.

[gwb72tii]

Can you ever make a valid point about anything? All your posts ever consist of is name calling. Aren't you pushing 60? I would hope that by the time I am 60 I will have moved past arguing with and insulting 20 somethings on an internet forum.

BTW, I do not go to Fairhaven but Bellingham in general has excellent weed.

fair enough and LOL

i was you years ago. grew up in the bay area in the 60's/70's. the founding of the ant-war radicalism of its time, haight asbury, beserkley, etc. i was basically a young man that didn't have the benefit of making my own mistakes and learning from them, which includes attitudes towards the usa and our military. i never served. i was 18 in 1972, turning 19 in jan 73, my draft # was 33 and i was glad nixon repealed the draft.
now that i have kids that are old enough to serve and be put in harms way, there is no amount of words that can express the respect i have for our military and all they do, voluntarily. that's why i react to anyone who says things as you did re bigwave man or towards our country. once you see for yourself all the good we do around the world that we never ask or get credit for you'll understand. i don;t want this to be a i'm older than you and know better bullshit kind of thing. all this is in the history books, but is never taught in college.
here is a serious question you might ask your prof when u get the chance, and i am dead serious. ask him/her who won the tet offensive in viet nam. the real answer is the USA. it was a devestating defeat for the communists, yet was portrayed as the opposite by domestic main stream media in our country. the viet cong/communists sued for peace, we signed, and promptly abandoned our allies after congress defunded our military. the end result was the khmer rouge and the killing fields of cambodia, 3,000,000 dead.
all of this is known history for anyone to "discover". yet the opposite is presented as truth. do some of your own critical thinking and challenge your profs. it might surprise you just how little they "know".

btw - age is a relative kinda thing
LOL

[BigWaveDave]

Comrade,

This probably relates to you.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/columnists/chall/stories/DN-Hall_20bus.ART.State.Edition1.399c025.html

"The biggest thing she does is help us understand where these kids are coming from," Mr. Hannay says. "Their orientation is so different from Gen Xers, who were the latchkey kids and are self-starters. These kids are fabulous at building teams, but they're challenged by responsibility and accountability." "They've been overparented, overindulged and overprotected," she says. "They haven't experienced that much failure, frustration, pain. We were so obsessed with protecting and promoting their self-esteem that they crumble like cookies when they discover the world doesn't revolve around them. They get into the real world and they're shocked.

"You have to be very careful in how you talk to them because they take everything as criticism."

[h0lmes]

Comrade,

This probably relates to you.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.399c025.html

Comrade,
That statement cannot be further from the truth.

[geoffp]

wow this thread turned into a shit show real quick. anyway i am in the Coast Guard and plan on sticking it out for a full 20 (maybe 30). this is the last place i ever pictured myself and i am really happy with my decision to join. the military is much different to outsiders than to what really goes on. thank to all who serve!

[BigWaveDave]

wow this thread turned into a shit show real quick. anyway i am in the Coast Guard and plan on sticking it out for a full 20 (maybe 30). this is the last place i ever pictured myself and i am really happy with my decision to join. the military is much different to outsiders than to what really goes on. thank to all who serve!

Good on you bro!

I worked with the Swimmers alot at Astoria.

[napabavarian]

[geoffp]

Good on you bro!

I worked with the Swimmers alot at Astoria.

those guys are nuts!! i'm not much of a swimmer, i can swim but not well! i work on the intel side, and i'm actually headed to hawaii in a week or so for the next 3 years!! so psyched!!!!

dave what kind of work did you do with the swimmers?

oh and anyone interested in reading a really good book on the military, please see this thread:
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=127147

[87e30]

I found this thread very interesting and would like to put my thanks out there.

Hearing from those who have served is always a pleasure.

geoffp: Great recomendation I may go pick it up... I've never been a reader (luckily I've got time to become one) but that book looks great.

[tofubento]

If any of you are around Ft.Bliss, stop by and see my sis! Shes recovering at the hospitol there, she got hit ( ied ) in afkrakistan. She is a combat medic...and really wants to be back with her unit over there. Shes there for physical therapy for the next 6-8months, so if anyone wants to drop her aline and get some drinks let me know! :D

and again BIG THANKS to our VETS!!!!

and to H0lmes...your an idiot. Go live in china for a bit, then come back at how great all that bs is. Its great on paper but it has one major flaw, that flaw is humanity.

[ldsbeaker]

I'm in the Marines. 12+ years. Call me Gunny. ;)
Unless you've served, you don't have a leg to stand on, talking shit about the military.
I don't care if your grandpa, aunt, brother, stepdad, cousin, etc. served.. Unless you've done it YOURSELF, stfu, and gtfo.

If you HAVE served, and talk shit about the military...
THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your service. Seriously. Doing something you obviously hated for 3-5 years is HARD. Sorry you didn't have a great time! The military isn't for everyone...

I will say that if I had to do it over again, I might have gone to college first and joined as an officer. DEFINITELY the way to go.

[tofubento]

I will say that if I had to do it over again, I might have gone to college first and joined as an officer. DEFINITELY the way to go.

Thats what I am doing...granted ill be almost 30 when I go in, but damn it beats enlisted.

[YAN-3]

i'm in the marines. 12+ years. Call me gunny. ;)
unless you've served, you don't have a leg to stand on, talking shit about the military.
I don't care if your grandpa, aunt, brother, stepdad, cousin, etc. Served.. Unless you've done it yourself, stfu, and gtfo.

If you have served, and talk shit about the military...
Thank you very much for your service. Seriously. Doing something you obviously hated for 3-5 years is hard. Sorry you didn't have a great time! The military isn't for everyone...

I will say that if i had to do it over again, i might have gone to college first and joined as an officer. Definitely the way to go.

+1