What if Jesus wasn't a white dude?

[iwillhunt]

I'm done with this thread. I simply don't know enough at this time to continue on debating about Jesus' existence. It's way off topic by now anyway, and I've already made my point about the color of Jesus' skin being irrelevant.

[Vrbovan]

LOL

I am a historical Jesus Scholar. And no we do not debate the existence of Jesus rather the redactorial (editorial) influences of the gospels.

On existence however the argument is this... How can there be proof that any historical figure existed? Alexander the Great only exists because we have a record of the cities he built, the law he spread over his vast empire. the effect of his mission.

Likewise we know Jesus existed because of the effect of him. The movement that stemmed from his mission. Its the effect of them that counts.

In the subject, however, there is Great debate among us whether Jesus was an end time preacher or eschatologist or a prophet in the classic Jewish sense, or a Jewish mystic in touch with a spirit world through meditation....

The point of Jesus Scholarship is to uncover the true words and acts of Jesus in the primary sources and remove theological rhetoric.

[Vrbovan]

for a good laugh at the Jesus scholar discipline look at the "passover plot". never accepted by mainstreemers like me, but a cool idea nevertheless.

[iwillhunt]

On existence however the argument is this... How can there be proof that any historical figure existed? Alexander the Great only exists because we have a record of the cities he built, the law he spread over his vast empire. the effect of his mission.

Likewise we know Jesus existed because of the effect of him. The movement that stemmed from his mission. Its the effect of them that counts.

(Okay, so I guess I'm not quite done with this thread yet.)

Unfortunately this argument seems very weak to me. Couldn't Alexander the Great be a complete myth, too, or simply a man credited with accomplishments that are either not his, or not exclusively his? Just because there is/was a historical movement that stemmed from a man named "Jesus" does not mean he was a real person.

Obviously I believe he is real, but I wouldn't feel comfortable using this argument to support my position. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm simply looking for a strong argument to prove that he truly did exist (as I've clearly failed in my attempts in the thread) to those who are either skeptical or completely opposed, as well as to myself.

[Farbin Kaiber]

(Okay, so I guess I'm not quite done with this thread yet.)

Unfortunately this argument seems very weak to me. Couldn't Alexander the Great be a complete myth, too, or simply a man credited with accomplishments that are either not his, or not exclusively his? Just because there is/was a historical movement that stemmed from a man named "Jesus" does not mean he was a real person.

Obviously I believe he is real, but I wouldn't feel comfortable using this argument to support my position. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm simply looking for a strong argument to prove that he truly did exist (as I've clearly failed in my attempts in the thread) to those who are either skeptical or completely opposed, as well as to myself.

If you believe that way, then you don't believe anything until you feel it "proofed" to your liking. Like the fact the Iranian prez claims the Holocoust never happened. That's BS.

[iwillhunt]

^ The problem is not that I don't believe it, it's that people opposed to believing in Jesus will not be convinced by that argument, or at least I don't think so.

(and I think there is a lot more evidence of the holocaust than of Alexander the Great or Jesus, so not believing in it is a bit more ridiculous)

[Miasma]

This.

Fuck you asshat.

There is a bunch of stupid fuck sheep that are regurgitating BS instead of looking into historical texts to verify a probable answer to the question.

[Vrbovan]

well first of all, consider the time period we're referring to. the average joe didn't exactly keep records of himself in first century Palestine. Jesus probably could not have afforded paper or vellum even if he wanted to. so no record exists.

But people who knew Jesus did write about him. Peter's secretary was believed to be the author of Gospel Mark. roughly 50-60 CE. the earliest writings are from St. Paul, 40CE. So now we are getting into the time of Jesus and recorded proof of Jesus' actions from people who knew him and people who knew the apostles. Whats more is that the author of Matthew was a Jewish-Cristian believed to be part of the early Jerusalem Church. This Church was founded by Jesus' brother James, who is may have had a hand in the authorship of Matthew.... so now we are into evidence of Jesus from first hand, from his own family!

Like I said though, whe know he existed because of his effect, it is not debated it is fact.

[Farbin Kaiber]

^ The problem is not that I don't believe it, it's that people opposed to believing in Jesus will not be convinced by that argument, or at least I don't think so.

(and I think there is a lot more evidence of the holocaust than of Alexander the Great or Jesus, so not believing in it is a bit more ridiculous)

Well, try that concept in a thousand years.

[iwillhunt]

Well, try that concept in a thousand years.

That is completely irrelevant. Obviously if Jesus was walking the earth in the 1940s we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, except with Iran's president.

[Farbin Kaiber]

No, it all has to be taken into perspective.

[iwillhunt]

But people who knew Jesus did write about him. Peter's secretary was believed to be the author of Gospel Mark. roughly 50-60 CE. the earliest writings are from St. Paul, 40CE. So now we are getting into the time of Jesus and recorded proof of Jesus' actions from people who knew him and people who knew the apostles. Whats more is that the author of Matthew was a Jewish-Cristian believed to be part of the early Jerusalem Church. This Church was founded by Jesus' brother James, who is may have had a hand in the authorship of Matthew.... so now we are into evidence of Jesus from first hand, from his own family!

Thank you. The dates and specific references are what I've been waiting for.

[Vrbovan]

Yes, but since Christians believe Jesus IS God, they must deny any science that does not support their version of history.....

I've yet to find a Christian who can answer this: IF Jesus was God, and therefore God practiced Judaism, then how can you now claim Jews are hell-bound?

Also, please point to the place in the Gospels where Jesus unequivocally states "when I die, you are to promptly abandon the traditions I MYSELF PRACTICED, and create a new system of belief. Since I am not allowed to be specific (apparently) then you must guess about what it is I want and expect. Oh, and though I myself have lived a completely non-violent life, go kill others who won't believe your version of what I am." "Oh, and that stuff about giving you "a NEW commandment" about treating others as you wish to be treated and loving your enemies and all that.......yeaaaahhhh.......doesn't apply if your enemy doesn't immediately love you back....."

I'm all for religious freedom, as long as it is kept FAR from government and is taxed like all the other panaceas people use to get through the day....

I can answer... There is no Claim that Jew are going to hell, at least there shouldn't be. Jesus was a Jew and was well versed in the Torah. The first christians were Jews, and in fact there was little distinction between Jew and Jew that believed Jesus to be the messiah for the first 100 years.

Second Jesus does NOT refute the Torah. He strengthens it.

example. no murder ... jesus said no anger
no adultery.... no lust
no false swearing.... no swearing
love neighbor.... love enemy

[ragged325]

Like I said though, whe know he existed because of his effect, it is not debated it is fact.

I'm pretty sure that when all of the Christian theologians get together, it's pretty easy for them to agree that there is proof that Jesus was real.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I can answer... There is no Claim that Jew are going to hell, at least there shouldn't be.

Truth, in Revelation, they are given a second chance to accept Jesus as the one true Messiah.