GM, Bailout, Obama....

[E30Kaiser]

what an astoundingly narrow-minded view.

true that the EPA is a pain in the ass, and that electrics won't be any help for roadtrips.. but this is about the daily grind. 100 mile range is PLENTY. For most people, DD use is 90%+ of the energy they use. If you have to drive 3k miles to grandma's every weekend then don't sell the minivan.. People act like having a separate electric for DD use isn't even an option or something with these arguments.

Power plants are over twice as efficient as the theoretical maximum an otto cycle engine can achieve, and can do it cleanly. Offloading our energy use to the grid is the best possible step we can take. Honestly there are so many advantages to electric when it comes to torque control, reduced maintenance, etc that I'm amazed we haven't pushed it just from the performance perspective. You don't have to give a flying fuck about "being green" to realize what a superior car it would be.

Not to mention Tesla gives you the option to put solar panels on your house/garage for like 15k if you are that concerned about the damage a power plant is doing to the environment. Range on these cars will increase and price will come down to the point where it is acceptable for the masses. It is a good option, and the infrastructure and technology is already in place, just needs upgrades to really take off.

[mrsleeve]

what an astoundingly narrow-minded view.

true that the EPA is a pain in the ass, and that electrics won't be any help for roadtrips.. but this is about the daily grind. 100 mile range is PLENTY. For most people, DD use is 90%+ of the energy they use. If you have to drive 3k miles to grandma's every weekend then don't sell the minivan.. People act like having a separate electric for DD use isn't even an option or something with these arguments.

Power plants are over twice as efficient as the theoretical maximum an otto cycle engine can achieve, and can do it cleanly. Offloading our energy use to the grid is the best possible step we can take. Honestly there are so many advantages to electric when it comes to torque control, reduced maintenance, etc that I'm amazed we haven't pushed it just from the performance perspective. You don't have to give a flying fuck about "being green" to realize what a superior car it would be.

Ummmm 100 years ago there were electric cars being produced right along side gas and being developed at the same time. Why dont we see them still. the same reasons they are not viable now

When we have one that can pull my horse trailer, or get my up and down the back country with it, or get me off the roads on a muddy right of ways that are in the back country as well with 10k lbs of gear so I can go to work as good as any diesel or hell even Gasser let me know

Kiser; watch the top gear of Clarkson flogging on Tesla, they had to have 2 of them to film one small segment with it because the batts die in no time when you drive it like a sports car

[E30Kaiser]

Kiser; watch the top gear of Clarkson flogging on Tesla, they had to have 2 of them to film one small segment with it because the batts die in no time when you drive it like a sports car

That turned out to be fake, but I did like that episode. Tesla was pretty pissed about the whole incident, with Top Gear making it look like that car broke down for laughs.

I don't think that electric is the answer in every case, at least not for a long time, but it is a good avenue to go down for things like daily driving in the city.

[mrsleeve]

I don't think that electric is the answer in every case, at least not for a long time, but it is a good avenue to go down for things like daily driving in the city.

This is one part I can agree with for those that never ever leave the city. They are just not practical for about 99% of people, that have kids, work on their homes, have hobbies that are out doors. Really you have to urbanite that lives in a condo or apartment, and has to travel almost no where to get anything you need and only have to go 12 blocks to get to work.

[E30Kaiser]

This is one part I can agree with for those that never ever leave the city. They are just not practical for about 99% of people, that have kids, work on their homes, have hobbies that are out doors. Really you have to urbanite that lives in a condo or apartment, and has to travel almost no where to get anything you need and only have to go 12 blocks to get to work.

I wouldn't go that far, I mean the Tesla Model S has a lot of cargo room, and a range of 300 miles, that is plenty for everything but a road trip or something you would need a truck for, and they are working their way down in terms of cost and making cars that are more and more geared for everyday use. The plan is to let rich hollywood hipsters incur the high costs at the beginning though.

But as it stands right now with most electric cars, they are for the hollywood elite and the urbanites that you described.

[LBJefferies]

How long does it take to charge a battery? It would be cool if there was some sort of quick charging innovation.

[E30Kaiser]

How long does it take to charge a battery? It would be cool if there was some sort of quick charging innovation.

It is 3.5 hours for a full charge with the Tesla Roadster which gives you a range of 250mile, I am sure that is with a bigger cord than your normal cord though. I think in Israel they had a project going on with recharging stations where you switch out battery packs instead of recharging, which could work as well.

[Wiglaf]

Ummmm 100 years ago there were electric cars being produced right along side gas and being developed at the same time. Why dont we see them still. the same reasons they are not viable now

When we have one that can pull my horse trailer, or get my up and down the back country with it, or get me off the roads on a muddy right of ways that are in the back country as well with 10k lbs of gear so I can go to work as good as any diesel or hell even Gasser let me know

Kiser; watch the top gear of Clarkson flogging on Tesla, they had to have 2 of them to film one small segment with it because the batts die in no time when you drive it like a sports car

an AWD electric would own anything with a traditional transmission as far as the mud goes. Independent control of the power going to each wheel, what a dream that would be.
As far as the rest, sounds like you've restricted yourself to the diesel truck segment of the market. I can understand you're lack of enthusiasm because 75% of the current car market offerings already don't apply to you. That's NOT 99% of people. The vast majority of people have needs that a honda civic can meet.

anyways, back to the Volt being awesome.. it's a hybrid done the right way. small engine produces the average power when needed, other than that the driveline is electric. A lot of people are underestimating this approach because the hybrids we've had so far have been totally half-assed. I'm a little disappointed that this still passed the opportunity to dump the transmission and a few other perks that electric provides but it's a step in the right direction.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

will say again, if we the EPA outta the way and let the engineers do their thing, we would have smaller displacement high boost ultra efficient engines that make 200+hp and get 50-70mpg, this option is by far better than a complicated small little shit box. As it is the EPA regulated such engines outta of existence in this country and is trying to stifle development even more with more stupid regulations. Thanks to bureaucrats that have not a clue about the laws of physics or how a Internal combustion engine works


Yes I am kinda limited to diesels (345hp 560ft/lbs bone stock and gets 19mpg on the highway empty), need them to make a living and to enjoy our hobbies. I like my fun smaller light nimble cars too but Hybrids are a nothing more than a feel good technology that is a dead end.

When we have a batt tech that gets the weight down and recharge time down to your average fill up with sufficient amperage to get similar numbers to most modern automotive options then we will have a viable electric option that I can get behind. Just one issue, no more great noises coming from a engine bay ...................just a whiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrr zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz just not the same :(

[ck_taft325is]

I was/am an electrician. My cousin in-law and journey man of 27 years and I did the math on what it would take if EVERYONE in the country had an electric vehicle.. get this.. there's not enough power on the PLANET to charge one car per FAMILY (mind you, not driver) in the USA. Not to mention independants. We averaged the math out at 2 per "household", per household ='s 1 car. Not to mention the plug adaptations you'd meed to charge said "electric" vehicle. All of which was taken off of the latest 12v cars that take roughly 5.2 hours to charge at an average of $312.73 a month impact on the "average" home. Seriously, there's not enough power in the world to power simply the "couples" of the US of A in electric vehicles.

[Wiglaf]

Not arguing that compact diesels in Europe do pretty well, I know that they do but the TDI offerings are available here as well. And they do get over 50MPG. If you get crazy comparing numbers from over there don't forget that the British gallon is larger, which throws off MPG comparisons.

"more energy than we have" is sort of a misnomer don't ya think? Just the power plant would be pumping gas instead of you at the pump.

$312.73 per month you say? Please explain how you came up with such a high number, because that is practically what I spend in gasoline. Every time I've calculated this number, and I have several times with each electric, my total dropped to 1/3 or less.

[mar1t1me]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

will say again, if we the EPA outta the way and let the engineers do their thing

I'm not sure we can totally blame the EPA. Instead I blame automakers who, at least in the US, stigmatize small motors. And they nearly all do. BMW is a major offender, as is VW. The Big 3 spent decades deriding small motors and tried to paint people who wanted them as inferior. They continually refused to spend money developing small efficient power plants, even crying the blues that the EPA regs couldn't be met with current technology. Honda proved them wrong when he politely borrowed a Vega, fitted his own cylinder head and sent it back. It now had more power, was more efficient and passed the EPA tests that the Big 3 were saying couldn't BE passed.

If our vehicle registration fees were tied to displacement, with a big savings for motors under 2.0L, and big taxes for non-commercial, non-AG vehicles over 3.5L, you'd see massive consumer demand for powerful small motors. Why do you think Europe and Asia have led the field when it comes to thimble sized engineering marvels? Demand. Pure and simple.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While you are correct with the marketing thing it has little to do with that.

The epa has effectively regulated ultra high efficient combustion engines (of any displacement) thanks to its fucking stupid NOx standards that are much much stricter than anywhere else in the world. Why do you think you now have to add yet another fluid to all 2010 diesels sold in this country????????????? They are (or have) gotten insane CAFE standards now to go into effect next year I think.

To have high efficiency, you have to run lean, which is very do able (hondas I believe runs at like 17:1 Air to Fuel while cursing as opposed to what we have all been taught that a 12:1 is optimal mix). Well to run that lean you make lots of heat, that heat fuses some of the inert nitrogen (71% of the air intake charge) and some O2 into Nox compounds. Its the laws of physics. To have those great MPG numbers make just as good if not better power than we have now, and not have to complicate the works, IS a WIN WIN WIN deal for all involved, but it wont happen, that would require the govt doing something right and that makes sense.

The EPA just needs to GO the FUCK AWAY in general, now you have to be a govt/epa licensed contractor to remodel your own home, and the EPA can fine you 32000 bucks a day if they see fit and your not. This admin wants to use the EPA as a hammer to enforce and call CO2 a toxic gas so it can be regulated by the EPA. Its a over bloated and all reaching arm of the govt that is effecting ever ones life, and hindering developments in technology, by imposing stupid regulations that industries have to meet, rather than develop the new next generation of tech. They have to use those research dollars and resources to meet the govt every increasingly strict regulations.




^^

[Vedubin01]

bailing them out was a good thing why? After the new IPO, the stock as fallen 1/3 and continues to fall. They will be bankrupt again very soon!





U.S. boosts estimate of auto bailout losses to $23.6B

David Shepardson/ Detroit News Washington Bureau

The Treasury Department dramatically boosted its estimate of losses from its $85 billion auto industry bailout by more than $9 billion in the face of General Motors Co.'s steep stock decline.
In its monthly report to Congress, the Treasury Department now says it expects to lose $23.6 billion, up from its previous estimate of $14.33 billion.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111114/...#ixzz1dtPqGSjD

[Morrison]

Personally, I voted for GM to fail with my wallet by never buying any of their products. And it wasn't for fuel economy reasons. Frumpy cloth interiors in most, combined with plastic panels that fall apart or crack if you look at them wrong, and hideous exterior styling were some of the biggest reasons for me to avoid them.