Arrest illegals, now what a novel idea!

[Kansas]

So is that a bit more explicit example of how they could cost us even more money then they do now?

Because no immigrant will ever make enough money to pay income tax? Whatever. Why don't you consider the fact that making them legal will force them to carry insurance or actually pay the penalty? They wouldn't be anymore able to pull off hit and runs or skip on their ER bills than any other American. They'd be paying state and municipal taxes, buying homes, starting businesses, etc etc etc.

And again, you can't deport them all. It's not logistically possible. Amnesty, or maintaining the status quo, are the only realistic options.

[machined]

It's not racist, want to come here to study / live / work....do it legally like many others (me included) have...otherwise get the fuck out.

Being on Judge Judy confirmed your citizenship!

[mrsleeve]

Because no immigrant will ever make enough money to pay income tax? Whatever. Why don't you consider the fact that making them legal will force them to carry insurance or actually pay the penalty? They wouldn't be anymore able to pull off hit and runs or skip on their ER bills than any other American. They'd be paying state and municipal taxes, buying homes, starting businesses, etc etc etc.

And again, you can't deport them all. It's not logistically possible. Amnesty, or maintaining the status quo, are the only realistic options.

Oh for Christ sake. Giving them amnesty will NOT FORCE them to buy auto insurance or keep them from skipping out of town on bills or when they get in trouble with the law even more (plenty of legal citizens do this shit every day as well). They can and will just go back to mexico.

Yeah you your self said that this source of cheap labor is needed. Cheap implies they will be in the bottom 50% of wage earners and there for not pay any federal tax, and very little in state taxes. The only way we get them now is with sales tax. (of course some would) But a day laborer MAKING CASH is not going to report that, or at the very least report enough to show income but no so much to pay taxes. They will again soak up even more in Free heath care, food stamps, Welfare, Section 8 govt housing etc ... etc... Really you must live OZ and not Kansas, do you have a dog named toto as well.

So which is it they will make enough to pay taxes like the rest of us, or be that cheap source of labor ??????

We let them buy houses, get credit cards, and what not already, oh wow that worked out well (granted there were plenty of citizens that fucked up right along side them) . Ask BOA how that whole credit to "undocumented workers" worked out


No You cant get them all in one shot or even in 1 years time. But you round up as many as possible and send them back. As you find them around the country over time, OUT they go.

[z31maniac]

Because no immigrant will ever make enough money to pay income tax? Whatever. Why don't you consider the fact that making them legal will force them to carry insurance or actually pay the penalty? They wouldn't be anymore able to pull off hit and runs or skip on their ER bills than any other American. They'd be paying state and municipal taxes, buying homes, starting businesses, etc etc etc.

And again, you can't deport them all. It's not logistically possible. Amnesty, or maintaining the status quo, are the only realistic options.

Did h0lmes start yet another alias?

Again you said yourself, cheap labor. The non-english speaking Strawberry pickers are probably not destined to be the next Wal-Mart CEO.

Health Insurance, if you had done any research at all, you would see there are plenty of examples where it will be cheaper for people to pay the penalty. Then when they get sick, buy insurance (community ratings and no pre-existing conditions clauses), then get well and drop their insurance again.

[mar1t1me]

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with checking to see if people are legitimate citizens. But there's the sticky spot. Citizens have the right to be free of "papers please" types of searches, but non-citizens do not. And cops don't want the legal hassles of violating legitimate citizen's right. That's why they're trying to push responsibility onto the businesses thinking that if businesses don't hire illegals, they'll just go away.

Already, since the latest immigration crackdown, farmers are complaining that fields are going unpicked because not enough people show up for the jobs. I suppose if all the immigrants get run out of AG country, we'll just end up with more foreign grown produce. Americans are not lining up for these jobs, but even if they were, Walmart won't pay more for produce picked by better paid Americans and that will be that. Just like the way the rest of our American made things have gone....

Maybe we need a few years of relative tumult to get our ship righted. But even if every illegal alien vaporized overnight, millions of Americans won't suddenly flock to the picking fields. We've gotten a little too fat and comfy in our "Knowledge based economy".

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

adversity is the mother of all invention. not enough people to pick, then invent a machine to do it. Why dont we have such harvesters now. Because its too expensive in the short run

[mar1t1me]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

adversity is the mother of all invention. not enough people to pick, then invent a machine to do it. Why dont we have such harvesters now. Because its too expensive in the short run

Lettuce picking machines start at about $500,000.

Will consumers pay more for "immigrant free" Patriot produce? Are people pissed off enough about illegals to refuse their services? That's the big question.

[mrsleeve]

Lettuce picking machines start at about $500,000.

Will consumers pay more for "immigrant free" Patriot produce? Are people pissed off enough about illegals to refuse their services? That's the big question.

dude I grew up on a farm and am currently located in CENTRAL IOWA (staying with the inlaws on a short bit of time off between jobs), I know what farm equipment costs, I have more hours sitting on a old JD, Massey and International tractors, making hay, planting an picking corn and beans as a kid than I care to remember.

Like I said if they dont have enough labor to pick it all, they will go out and buy the equipment to do the job or invent it. Other wise they have wasted product sitting on the ground rotting, that = lost income and lost time and materials getting it to harvest = a loss on the year.

You have to spend money to make money, and equipment is a big part of that. Really a 1/2 a mill investment per farm, to to service a multi billion dollar annual industry in CA alone is not outta line, and wont effect the over all price of a head of lettuce by more than a few cents over all. Especially compared to leaving half the crop on the ground to rot.

Yeah well will people no, people in general will buy what ever is the cheapest no matter the source, just so lon as its cheap. Then bitch about how it is broke in less than a week and have to buy another one. I am not one of those people though, I buy the US product when ever I can even when it costs more. I buy most of my food from local growers (when possible) or outta the garden. Funny thing is the shit you buy at the local markets is the same cost if not less than the shit at walmart that is just crap produce

[mar1t1me]

^^^

I'm totally with you on about 99% of that. Not a farmer, though, but I do support CSAs and buy local whenever possible. Just one question--if machines were are cheaper or even about the same, or hell, for that matter a little more, then why do farmers even risk their investments with illegal pickers?

Is it tradition-as in that's the way dad did it, or habit, or just being short-sighted or even just plain cheap?

I'd find your input of particular value given your background....

[mrsleeve]

^^^

I'm totally with you on about 99% of that. Not a farmer, though, but I do support CSAs and buy local whenever possible. Just one question--if machines were are cheaper or even about the same, or hell, for that matter a little more, then why do farmers even risk their investments with illegal pickers?

Is it tradition-as in that's the way dad did it, or habit, or just being short-sighted or even just plain cheap?

I'd find your input of particular value given your background....

to be honest I have no idea. It must really be that much cheaper along with the fact that immigration enforcement, is lax. I seem to remember seeing a TV show about how lettuce in particular needs to be picked by hand along with fruits to not damage them. Really I have no clue why you would not make that investment when you are running a couple thousand ac of what ever. While your "undocumented workers" can only work 6-10 hour days because they have to wait for the dew to burn off before they can get out there and do anything, then it gets dark. When you have equipment that could run 14-18 hours a day, seems you could get the shit up packed and to market that much faster. Harvest time is all go go go go go, get the shit off the before the weahter hits. But then again I have no clue how it works in SoCal I am a Midwestern boy, so maybe I am missing something

You would see many more people lining up for these jobs if we stop paying them to sit on thier ass not get a job. I think you can get up to 99 weeks of unemployment now and welfare. You let those benefits dry up and you will see Americans willing to DO ANY WORK to put food on the table

Farming is expensive period, you are talking about investment in just the basic equipment of 1/2 to 3/4 of a million dollars just to grow crops for a medium sized farm, if you go dairy or other live stock production you are looking at another million+ in facilities to get that going as well. This is not including the stupid land prices we have now a days, seed, feed, fuel, growing aids, insurances or the live stock itself and the list goes on and on. Thats why we have seen a huge decline in small family farms in the last 50 years. You have to be running a good 1000ac to make a reasonable profit and really to make it worth your time and do it full time with out having a 9-5 full time job too you need have about 2500+ac. This is why its mostly all big corporate farms now, the little 100-500ac family farm is lucky to make enough profit to pay the property taxes after all the seed, fuel, animal feed, Vet supplies and bills, equipment repairs (assuming your shit is old and paid for), growing aids, seasonal loans, and income taxes are paid.

To be honest I miss it, and if I could do it I would go back to it in a heart beat back in southern MI. But I dont have 2-3 mill laying around to start up an get a decent farm up and running only to profit a 10% of that on a good year or lose 25% of that on a bad year, and have to work my ass off 16 hours a day 365 days a year.


(full disclosure Yes I use the UE system nearly every winter for 2 -3 months normally but have only been off for the full term of 26 weeks once and that was last winter/spring. )

[e30e]

to be honest I have no idea. It must really be that much cheaper along with the fact that immigration enforcement, is lax. I seem to remember seeing a TV show about how lettuce in particular needs to be picked by hand along with fruits to not damage them. Really I have no clue why you would not make that investment when you are running a couple thousand ac of what ever. While your "undocumented workers" can only work 6-10 hour days becasue they have to wait for the dew to burn off before they can get out there and do anything, then it gets dark. When you have equipment that could run 14-18 hours a day, seems you could get the shit up packed and to market that much faster. Harvest time is all go go go go go, get the shit off the before the weahter hits. But then again I have no clue how it works in SoCal I am a Midwestern boy, so maybe I am missing something

You would see many more people lining up for these jobs if we stop paying them to sit on thier ass not get a job. I think you can get up to 99 weeks of unemployment now and welfare. You let those benefits dry up and you will see Americans willing to DO ANY WORK to put food on the table

Farming is expensive peroid, you are talking about investment in just the basic equipment of 1/2 to 3/4 of a million dollars just to grow crops for a medium sized farm, if you go dairy or other live stock production you are looking at another million+ in facilities or more to get that going as well. This is not including the stupid land prices we have now a days or the live stock itself. Thats why we have seen a huge decline in small family farms in the last 50 years. You have to be running a good 1000ac to make a reasonable profit and really to make it worth your time and do it full time with out having a 9-5 full time job too you need have about 2500+ac. This is why its mostly all big corporate farms now, the little 100-500ac family farm is lucky to make enough profit to pay the property taxes after all the seed, fuel, animal feed, Vet supplies and bills, equipment repairs (assuming your shit is old and paid for), growing aids, seasonal loans, and income taxes are paid.

To be honest I miss it, and if I could do it I would go back to it in a heart beat back in southern MI. But I dont have 2-3 mill laying around to start up an get a decent farm up and running only to profit a 10% of that on a good year and have to work my ass off 16 hours a day 365 days a year.


(full disclosure Yes I use the UE system nearly every winter for 2 -3 months normally but have only been off for the full term of 26 weeks once and that was last winter/spring. )

One of the biggest reasons Lettuce is hand picked is that the plant is delicate and needs to stay cold, as a tractor guy myself I don't know of many machines that don't get hot. Not to say there isn't room for future development a such a machine. But in Yuma, which is the winter lettuce capital of the us what they do for labor now is sub contract it to California companies that hire illegals to pick all the winter crops and then in the summer they all grow crops that can be harvested by machines since its 120 degrees in the summer in Yuma.

[Kansas]

Oh for Christ sake. Giving them amnesty will NOT FORCE them to buy auto insurance or keep them from skipping out of town on bills or when they get in trouble with the law even more (plenty of legal citizens do this shit every day as well). They can and will just go back to mexico.

Sure. Because every other US citizen in that situation flees the country too, right?

Yeah you your self said that this source of cheap labor is needed.

Nevermind that I was stating that that is only the source of the current situation. If you want to deny illegal immigrants amnesty based solely on the idea that they won't contribute anything in federal income taxes, why not just deport the 50% of US citizens who don't contribute anything? If the only thing that matters is tax revenue, what's the difference?

No You cant get them all in one shot or even in 1 years time. But you round up as many as possible and send them back. As you find them around the country over time, OUT they go.

How much would even that cost us in taxes? In increased prices for consumer goods and produce? Do you seriously think that Americans would accept all those mounting costs for something they see no tangible benefit from? Besides, the recently deported illegals are just going to turn around and head right back into the US. Along with all the others who see a better life north of the border.

Accept that there will be no mass deportation of illegals. We have to figure out how to best work with them. That means either amnesty (citizenship, to clarify) or maintaining the status quo.

Haha, you're attempting to make fun of my name (hurrdurr "Oz" jokes, never heard those before) and you're an unemployed Iowa farmboy? Fucking come on. Go suck some more farm subsidies from the federal teat (that's damn near socialism, friend) then come back and tell us about entitlements and drains on the US economy.

Again you said yourself, cheap labor. The non-english speaking Strawberry pickers are probably not destined to be the next Wal-Mart CEO.

Sure, but yet again, citizenship doesn't just bring benefits but obligations as well.

Health Insurance, if you had done any research at all, you would see there are plenty of examples where it will be cheaper for people to pay the penalty. Then when they get sick, buy insurance (community ratings and no pre-existing conditions clauses), then get well and drop their insurance again.

If I had done any research at all? By all means, provide a credible source that proves me wrong. I suppose health insurance will soon be a moot point anyway, given the recent HCR legislation.

You would see many more people lining up for these jobs if we stop paying them to sit on thier ass not get a job.

Yea, sure. Unemployed people will go halfway across the nation to pick lettuce for minimum wage. Bullshit.

[mrsleeve]

Sure. Because every other US citizen in that situation flees the country too, right?

Ones that have absolutely no ties or loyalties to this country sure. They prove on a daily basis, this is how they feel. No attempt learn English, fly the Mexican flag above ours, and on and on. They will just go back when there is trouble. To think by just granting them amnesty they will suddenly have some kind of patriotism and feel some responsibility to this country is foolish and idealistic at best. Not to mention a slap in the face and down right insult to all the immigrants here legally, that did it the right way and earned their citizenship or right to be here.

Nevermind that I was stating that that is only the source of the current situation. If you want to deny illegal immigrants amnesty based solely on the idea that they won't contribute anything in federal income taxes, why not just deport the 50% of US citizens who don't contribute anything? If the only thing that matters is tax revenue, what's the difference?

Your words not mine. I would deny them amnesty because they are breaking the law to get here and by being here. You or I break the law we pay a fine, go to jail and lose our rights, some permanently . We are am not rewarded for it. How is this logic failing you???????

Really hows the weather in OZ this time of year, I might want to retire to a fantasy land some day, this real world shit is hard.

How much would even that cost us in taxes? In increased prices for consumer goods and produce? Do you seriously think that Americans would accept all those mounting costs for something they see no tangible benefit from? Besides, the recently deported illegals are just going to turn around and head right back into the US. Along with all the others who see a better life north of the border.

How much do they cost being here??? Unknown but it costs money to enforce the law, so why not enforce it, ship them out and keep them out. I have no issues if they come back, but through the front door not in the basement window,as it were.

Haha, you're attempting to make fun of my name (hurrdurr "Oz" jokes, never heard those before) and you're an unemployed Iowa farmboy? Fucking come on. Go suck some more farm subsidies from the federal teat (that's damn near socialism, friend) then come back and tell us about entitlements and drains on the US economy.

Ok I dont need to justify myself to you but this is all you need to know

1) not form IA, I am here spending time with the little woman and visiting with my inlaws while I wait for my next job to kick off, I live in Montana. I have 2-3 weeks of R&R that my boss TOLD ME TO TAKE OFF. Considering I have been home 13 days in the last 9 months and the next job I am going to is slated to last at least 14 months, a little time off is justified dont you agree. I work all over the country (PA mostly the last couple of years) I never see my family, dog, or even 98% of the stuff I own because I am out working 2400 miles from home 6-7 days a week making a living

2)Dont start on farm subsides I am one of the biggest opponents of them. I say let them farm for what we need and what the markets need not what the govt tells them too, or pays them not to grow anything. They would be far better off and more profitable and you would likely see food prices come down. You really dont know who you are talking to.

3) I FUCKING HATE THIS HELL HOLE OF A STATE KNOWN AS IOWA

Yea, sure. Unemployed people will go halfway across the nation to pick lettuce for minimum wage. Bullshit.

Ummmmmmmm at last check CA has some of the highest unemployment numbers in the country, willing to bet there are enough there to cover the needs of the farmers there 1000 times over, if we cut them off, and get rid of the illegals.

[LBJefferies]

[z31maniac]

Guess you should slit your own wrists. Ya know, to make up for the guilt you feel because of your ancestors.