An argument against wealth

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  • E30Kaiser
    E30 Mastermind
    • Mar 2008
    • 1790

    #16
    Originally posted by LBJefferies
    Perhaps I should have used a different title. The point I was trying to make is that money/profit/wealth are not the most important incentives that people have to work. The capitalist mindset of this country has people thinking that the only way things will get done is if you pay people, as if money is the sole incentive. This video shows that is not the case. So it does make an interesting argument against wealth and in support of a more *gasp* socialist system.
    I think you just shouldn't use the term "Socialist system" it has too much baggage that comes with it that has nothing to do with what they are saying, like welfare, health care, etc. You should use the term, "Happy System of Social and Economic Freedom" comrade.
    "We're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time"-Colin McCrae

    Comment

    • Turf1600
      R3V OG
      • Nov 2006
      • 9815

      #17
      Originally posted by LBJefferies
      Perhaps I should have used a different title. The point I was trying to make is that money/profit/wealth are not the most important incentives that people have to work. The capitalist mindset of this country has people thinking that the only way things will get done is if you pay people, as if money is the sole incentive. This video shows that is not the case. So it does make an interesting argument against wealth and in support of a more *gasp* socialist system.
      Sorry, that's not the point of the video AT ALL.

      Like I said, the video stated that paying employees enough so that money isn't a problem is an excellent way to increase productivity.

      Regardless, the subject of the video is how traditional bonus structures aren't effective for jobs that require advanced thinking and problem solving skills. It also notes that positive reinforcement is beneficial for repetitive or mechanical jobs. So, what they're trying to demonstrate is that there comes a point in the business world where you need to draw a line between the two trpes of positions and be sure to reward each properly.

      I'm inclined to believe that you will always respond positively to positive reinforcement.
      "We praise or find fault, depending on which of the two provides more opportunity for our powers of judgement to shine."

      Comment

      • LBJefferies
        Banned
        • Sep 2009
        • 1690

        #18
        Originally posted by Turf1600
        Sorry, that's not the point of the video AT ALL.

        Like I said, the video stated that paying employees enough so that money isn't a problem is an excellent way to increase productivity.

        Regardless, the subject of the video is how traditional bonus structures aren't effective for jobs that require advanced thinking and problem solving skills. It also notes that positive reinforcement is beneficial for repetitive or mechanical jobs. So, what they're trying to demonstrate is that there comes a point in the business world where you need to draw a line between the two trpes of positions and be sure to reward each properly.

        I'm inclined to believe that you will always respond positively to positive reinforcement.
        The video may not have been precisely about what I said but it definitely supports that conclusion.

        Comment

        • Turf1600
          R3V OG
          • Nov 2006
          • 9815

          #19
          Originally posted by LBJefferies
          The video may not have been precisely about what I said but it definitely supports that conclusion.
          What conclusion?
          "We praise or find fault, depending on which of the two provides more opportunity for our powers of judgement to shine."

          Comment

          • StereoInstaller1
            GAS
            • Jul 2004
            • 22679

            #20
            Originally posted by Turf1600
            the subject of the video is how traditional bonus structures aren't effective for jobs that require advanced thinking and problem solving skills. It also notes that positive reinforcement is beneficial for repetitive or mechanical jobs. So, what they're trying to demonstrate is that there comes a point in the business world where you need to draw a line between the two trpes of positions and be sure to reward each properly.

            I'm inclined to believe that you will always respond positively to positive reinforcement.
            Yes, that is the basis of the video: slaves like moniez, give them a reason to work harder and they will.

            But, in the context of the video, I think you are missing the point.

            The point is (IMO, right?) that humans need to feel a sense of achievement, of connection to their work. Money is simply not enough of a motivator, humans are more noble than that.

            The real gist is people want to make a real difference in the world.

            Closing SOON!
            "LAST CHANCE FOR G.A.S." DEAL IS ON NOW

            Luke AT germanaudiospecialties DOT com or text 425-761-6450, or for quickest answers, call me at the shop 360-669-0398

            Thanks for 10 years of fun!

            Comment

            • Turf1600
              R3V OG
              • Nov 2006
              • 9815

              #21
              Originally posted by StereoInstaller1
              Yes, that is the basis of the video: slaves like moniez, give them a reason to work harder and they will.

              But, in the context of the video, I think you are missing the point.

              The point is (IMO, right?) that humans need to feel a sense of achievement, of connection to their work. Money is simply not enough of a motivator, humans are more noble than that.

              The real gist is people want to make a real difference in the world.
              Those who are capable, yes. Remember that those who don't respond well to bonuses are doing very cognitive work. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of positions that even have a worthwhile bonus structure or competitive pay.

              This isn't a black or white issue - it divides the work force into 2 categories: those who have repetitive or physical work, and those who have creative and cognitive work. Generally speaking, those who have cerebral work already get paid well, so they slide out of the category that includes workers who aren't happy with their pay and therefore aren't easily incentivized by monetary bonuses.

              What the video means is this: if you have a position that isn't easily filled then you should provide adequate pay in an effort to keep your employee from dwelling on money. Bonuses don't matter, because it's not money that's keeping them from working hard. Allowing the freedom to utilize your capital can increase your employee satisfaction, though.

              None of this applies to low level employees.

              Bonehead OP is trying to make it sound like paying employees less and taking away their bonuses will make them work harder. Either that or it's some sort of half baked attack on corporate greed. I really have no idea - but it is not an argument against wealth.
              "We praise or find fault, depending on which of the two provides more opportunity for our powers of judgement to shine."

              Comment

              • E30Kaiser
                E30 Mastermind
                • Mar 2008
                • 1790

                #22
                Originally posted by Turf1600
                Those who are capable, yes. Remember that those who don't respond well to bonuses are doing very cognitive work. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of positions that even have a worthwhile bonus structure or competitive pay.
                Actually it would be the otherway around because it said basically when the most basic of cognitive jobs was done that the bonuses didn't work well. It was only when doing nothing but mechanical jobs like digging holes or turning a crank that it worked
                "We're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time"-Colin McCrae

                Comment

                • Turf1600
                  R3V OG
                  • Nov 2006
                  • 9815

                  #23
                  Originally posted by E30Kaiser
                  Actually it would be the otherway around because it said basically when the most basic of cognitive jobs was done that the bonuses didn't work well. It was only when doing nothing but mechanical jobs like digging holes or turning a crank that it worked
                  ...Are you serious?

                  The "other way around" would be this:

                  To those who are not capable of high level labor, yes. Remember, those who are limited to routine labor and low skill crafts don't respond well to big fat bonus checks. Considering most positions are high paying, high skill positions with excellent bonus structures, this video is relevant to over 80% of our workforce.
                  "We praise or find fault, depending on which of the two provides more opportunity for our powers of judgement to shine."

                  Comment

                  • StereoInstaller1
                    GAS
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 22679

                    #24
                    I wonder if my work is a "cognitive" field. I do use quite a bit of math, and several disciplines are required to master my work...but every installer I know is a money grubbing whore...except me.

                    Closing SOON!
                    "LAST CHANCE FOR G.A.S." DEAL IS ON NOW

                    Luke AT germanaudiospecialties DOT com or text 425-761-6450, or for quickest answers, call me at the shop 360-669-0398

                    Thanks for 10 years of fun!

                    Comment

                    • mrsleeve
                      I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 16385

                      #25
                      guess I should have watched the movie 1st. Just made and assumption based on h0lmes reputation and his post.

                      Ooops oh well much of my arguments still stand even though a little outta context
                      Originally posted by Fusion
                      If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                      The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                      The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                      Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                      William Pitt-

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                      • E30Kaiser
                        E30 Mastermind
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 1790

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Turf1600
                        ...Are you serious?

                        The "other way around" would be this:

                        To those who are not capable of high level labor, yes. Remember, those who are limited to routine labor and low skill crafts don't respond well to big fat bonus checks. Considering most positions are high paying, high skill positions with excellent bonus structures, this video is relevant to over 80% of our workforce.
                        I misunderstood what you typed. But it said jobs that required even the lowest level of cognitive levels required more than just monetary incentive, not just "very cognitive jobs", so I would say most jobs in America fall under this umbrella.
                        "We're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time"-Colin McCrae

                        Comment

                        • Restoman
                          E30 Fanatic
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 1311

                          #27
                          Good video, but what lead you to it?
                          i'lldoitforacaravan

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                          • z31maniac
                            I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                            • Dec 2007
                            • 17566

                            #28
                            Originally posted by StereoInstaller1
                            Money is simply not enough of a motivator, humans are more noble than that.
                            I didn't watch the video (blocked at work), but I just wanted to point out that I'm not that noble.

                            Does my job make a difference? I don't know, I participate in trying to keep sailors in the Navy safe using highly dangerous equipment while protecting all of our sorry asses, so I'd like to think I'm helping in some smal way.

                            But that's a sense of pride that came after the fact, so it wasn't really a motivation to take this job.

                            A FAT increase in pay + benefits is what initially got me back to Tulsa. And I'd have no qualms about going off somewhere else for money, even if I wasn't doing anything "important."


                            I guess I'm just a souless and money hungry.
                            Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
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                            • Ryan Stewart
                              I Love Miatas
                              • Oct 2003
                              • 8978

                              #29
                              Originally posted by LBJefferies
                              There are tons of these videos by the Royal Society about interesting topics. This one is about motivations behind our work and our lives and it makes for an interesting argument against wealth. Basically, wealth isn't the key motivation behind our lives. We are instead motivated by autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Personally, I fully agree with the conclusion. I am still young and haven't started my career, but I would much rather do something that I am good at and enjoy, then doing something I hate that makes more money. Anybody else agree?

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

                              Bold 1: If I have a billion I dont think I would be worrying too much about what others think or want, I could do much more than I could now.

                              Bold 2: Which is why you are still liberal.

                              I do concur that there is a cost/benefit to take into account when you are measuring the value of your job. I wouldnt do something I hate for $90k because it would be a smaller increase and I enjoy my job now. On the other hand if someone offered me a job at $200k stuffing envelopes I would probably take it. Not out of pure greed but the knowing that I would be able to rake in plenty of money to do all of the stuff I love when I am not at work.
                              Im now E30less.
                              sigpic

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                              • E30Kaiser
                                E30 Mastermind
                                • Mar 2008
                                • 1790

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Ryan Stewart
                                Bold 1: If I have a billion I dont think I would be worrying too much about what others think or want, I could do much more than I could now.

                                Bold 2: Which is why you are still liberal.

                                I do concur that there is a cost/benefit to take into account when you are measuring the value of your job. I wouldnt do something I hate for $90k because it would be a smaller increase and I enjoy my job now. On the other hand if someone offered me a job at $200k stuffing envelopes I would probably take it. Not out of pure greed but the knowing that I would be able to rake in plenty of money to do all of the stuff I love when I am not at work.
                                But the question is, would you work harder at the job giving you $200k than if you were working somewhere for say $100k but you felt it was rewarding, stimulating, and important work? That is the point they are making. It isn't a matter of "Well I don't want to make double the amount of money I am making now because it is an unimportant job." it is a matter of does money really work as a motivator in terms of better work performance, or do other factors work better?
                                "We're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time"-Colin McCrae

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