our schools suck because of THE LIBERAL AGENDA

[ck_taft325is]

#1 - agreed, by far the most important aspect.
#2 - disagree, I think we need to REMOVE politics from the classroom
#3 - I'm torn on this one, personally, I'm not like a bunch of the whiny Atheists that are all offended by it. Pledge of allegiance, definitely.
#4 - Interesting, so we get to dissolve the property tax. How do you intend to pay for the schools?
#5 - Meh, around here you only see that at mainly minority schools and the occasional upper-middle class white kid who thinks he's in tight with Puffy.

[ck_taft325is]

Science and history, yes. If I recall, history was the topic of discussion initially. Point being, the religious right is trying to stifle free thought and critical thinking.

Secondarily, blame the people. Our education system is state funded and federally supported. Every time you vote to lower taxes something gets cut. Now, I'm not saying that taxes are well spent by any means - but this is what everyone voted for. Don't blame the president - blame your local representation that you've never heard of and never voted for.

I also believe that schools are not funded properly. They are being rewarded (with budget) for testing well and graduation rates. What does that promote? Teaching for tests and forcing kids through remedial classes just so they don't lose magnet school status or some shit. Schools need to do the right thing and teach the subjects not the tests. They need to fail those who fail and remove the tri-level GPA structure.

I don't know about you guys, but my school was academically segregated. Remedial courses, advanced and finally honors/AP courses. Guess what? All of my doctor teachers and historian history teachers were honors/AP. Remedial classes got coaches and art teachers who had to do something else also. While I benefited from this system, many didn't. There was a HUGE difference between the two types of people.

Back to the point, I learned more about history in 5 college classes than I ever did during 13 years of public school. Additionally, my schools got the facts wrong. While what they were teaching was sometimes correct, they left out enormous critical details that paint scenarios in a completely different light. The devil is in the details with these things, you know. Maybe it's because I'm in the south - I don't know. But public schools here lean heavily on religion. I'm an unbiased person. I can identify slants.

Oh, and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-app_n_497440.html

No religious agenda, right?

I want to point on thing out, Turf. The very act of claiming Christianity is trying to stifle free thought while simultainiously making the judgement that the Big Bang is the only way and should be taught such is doing EXACTLY what you're saying Christianity is doing.

[mar1t1me]

Is education fucked because society is fucked, or is society fucked because education is fucked? If we held to the educational standards of 50 years ago, we'd have 10 year old first graders! Stupid people tend to have more kids than smart people so as time passes the culture becomes less intelligent as a whole. 50 years ago you'd have been laughed out of the room if you were to suggest the world was 6000 years old and that man walked with dinosaurs, but now people shrug and say "well maybe it was"....

Liberals fault? Hardly.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Look you two above the sea fairer: the state nor federal govt can set a Official religion, this is why historically there has been little creationism taught in the modern schools systems. Its stuck to a mostly Scientific model, because invariably if you tech christian creationism, then some baptists will piss and moan because the dont believe in some little detail and the all the other variations on the them will get pissed that their version of creationism is not taught or that the kids were exposed to another religions views. It just leads to a big mess.

In the old days when you had to walk 5 miles in the snow up hill both ways to school and get your learnin from the school maram that was the preachers wife and the school house was the church, you can bet the education of origins of man were more religiouseeeee. But then again darwins theory had not been around too long by then.

When the states took over the schooling and began to standardize it they cant teach a religion based origin, or there for that would be getting close to the state sponsored/official religion, that is expressly forbidden in the Constitution.

[pureaudio]

I don't know what in the hell schools some of you went to but I grew up in an area with more cows than people and I can not think of a single instance where anything religious was taught in my public school career. I learned all of the theories about how we came to exist and that creation was also a theory out there but our parents were the ones to talk to about that. That was in grade school, in high school creation was not even mentioned as a theory.

[Turf1600]

I want to point on thing out, Turf. The very act of claiming Christianity is trying to stifle free thought while simultainiously making the judgement that the Big Bang is the only way and should be taught such is doing EXACTLY what you're saying Christianity is doing.

Wrong.

Teach whatever you want in church. Keep science in science classes.

[Turf1600]

How was your education heavily leaned on Religion then? I don't see the Big Bang as a great evil, just a little incomplete. And I don't mean this in a Christian or God way, just off the principle that it still doesn't answer where anything came from. But then again, I don't think we should really care. We should focus mostly on where we as a society, humans and such are headed as a whole.

I don't think you can keep pawning the downfall of "school" on religion. WA State has some of the worst SAT/Test scores right now and a fairly high drop out rate. I can tell you for a fact that "religion" isn't the reason. While some counties or individual aspects of "Religious right" have spoken up in their given county, I don't think this is wrong as that is their view point and on a majority scale, shouldn't be persecuted (90% of the 5,000 population town is Christian and runs the school, etc, etc...).

What this boils down to is it seems you feel that Christians, or any belief in a God(s) is flat out dead wrong. Your slant is quite contrary to your statement that you're unbiased. So, out with it. What would you do given the power, Turf?

Ok, I clearly outlined that religion in schools isn't the only problem. You understand that, right? I just don't think something so personal and with so little national affiliation belongs in a public school.

And yeah, I do feel that christians are wrong. Just as much as they feel I'm wrong. If they didn't, they'd be agnostics. That's by definition. What of it?

If given the power, I'd let teachers teach. They have spent 17 plus years learning so that they can teach. No standardized tests. No rote learning. All schools are budgeted per capita regardless of scores. There's no slant here. Keep church in church and fact based subjects in school. Easy enough, right?

[LBJefferies]

Yeah Wilson was really bad as well as FDR. Of course Wilson was pretty racist. This thread sucks now. How about we just agree that to better education these things need to happen:
#1 - parents get involved
#2 - conservatives run education
#3 - allow god and the pledge of allegiance in the classroom
#4 - do away with free public schooling and free lunches
#5 - stop letting kids sag they're pants. Don't they know that began in prison when gay inmates would do it to advertise they want some action in the butt.
BAMMMMM I just fixed education!!!

Is this a joke?

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Some of it, most of it is fairly accurate Other than the last parts and the god in the classroom beyond the pledge. The pledge need to be reinstated in all schools at all levels every fucking day again.

Not necessarily conservatives run schools, but those that want the truth to be passed on to the next generation, not a whitewashed pick and chose political agenda version of history and sciences.

[ck_taft325is]

Ok, I clearly outlined that religion in schools isn't the only problem. You understand that, right? I just don't think something so personal and with so little national affiliation belongs in a public school.

And yeah, I do feel that christians are wrong. Just as much as they feel I'm wrong. If they didn't, they'd be agnostics. That's by definition. What of it?

If given the power, I'd let teachers teach. They have spent 17 plus years learning so that they can teach. No standardized tests. No rote learning. All schools are budgeted per capita regardless of scores. There's no slant here. Keep church in church and fact based subjects in school. Easy enough, right?

You do realize Evolution does not disprove God despite what Dawkins wants you to believe. Larson and Witham's pole in 1997 left out a generous amount of factors to litigate their agenda that you cannot have "reasoned" thought if you believe in God. The original question posed to the scientists in both surveys ("Do you believe in a God who personally communicates with humanity?") factored out any scientist that believes in a God that does not communicate directly with humanity is automatically put into the catagory of "unbeliever". Skewing much of the pole results and Dawkins assertion that rational thought is slowly disproving and ruling God out any scientific or social realm.

Anti-Religious sentiment runs deep in the mind of fanatics (you) and shows clearly when you make over arching, ill-concieved thoughts about what you obviously have not thought through.

Stephen Jay Gould, the late Harvard scientist and evolutionish who was himself an atheist knew all about these studies but could not conclude with Dawkins that science necessarily clashed with Christian faith. He wrote:

"Either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional reliegious beliefs-andequally compatible with atheism"

Something else to take into account and maybe do some reading up on is the clash of Dawkins's claim that we must accept "physicalist naturalism... that the ultimate explanation of everything must lie in particle physics, string theory, or whatever purely extensional laws govern the elements of which the material world is composed." Thomas Nagel, a notable scholar and philosopher (also an Atheist) thinks Dawkins is wrong to insist on the above. What Dawkins and his followers fail to realize is they have stepped from science into philosophy. These two arenas cross paths but to claim absolute superiority above any other school of thought is dangerous ground which borders on fanaticism.

In regards to the original topic, I would assert that the Bible has little to do with the "downfall" of our education system as Evolution Vs. Creationism is highly blown out of proportion. The warfare model of thought in regards to both is astounding and not nearly as cut and dry as people would like to assume. We should exempt ourselves from the thought process that we must choose solely between the two and only these two options. Or that they are stand alone. Either school of thought is narrow minded and leads only to persecution of one another.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Wait.


THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION COMES WITH A MOTHERFUCKING DISCLAIMER??????????

[Turf1600]

You do realize Evolution does not disprove God despite what Dawkins wants you to believe. Larson and Witham's pole in 1997 left out a generous amount of factors to litigate their agenda that you cannot have "reasoned" thought if you believe in God. The original question posed to the scientists in both surveys ("Do you believe in a God who personally communicates with humanity?") factored out any scientist that believes in a God that does not communicate directly with humanity is automatically put into the catagory of "unbeliever". Skewing much of the pole results and Dawkins assertion that rational thought is slowly disproving and ruling God out any scientific or social realm.

Anti-Religious sentiment runs deep in the mind of fanatics (you) and shows clearly when you make over arching, ill-concieved thoughts about what you obviously have not thought through.

Stephen Jay Gould, the late Harvard scientist and evolutionish who was himself an atheist knew all about these studies but could not conclude with Dawkins that science necessarily clashed with Christian faith. He wrote:

"Either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional reliegious beliefs-andequally compatible with atheism"

Something else to take into account and maybe do some reading up on is the clash of Dawkins's claim that we must accept "physicalist naturalism... that the ultimate explanation of everything must lie in particle physics, string theory, or whatever purely extensional laws govern the elements of which the material world is composed." Thomas Nagel, a notable scholar and philosopher (also an Atheist) thinks Dawkins is wrong to insist on the above. What Dawkins and his followers fail to realize is they have stepped from science into philosophy. These two arenas cross paths but to claim absolute superiority above any other school of thought is dangerous ground which borders on fanaticism.

In regards to the original topic, I would assert that the Bible has little to do with the "downfall" of our education system as Evolution Vs. Creationism is highly blown out of proportion. The warfare model of thought in regards to both is astounding and not nearly as cut and dry as people would like to assume. We should exempt ourselves from the thought process that we must choose solely between the two and only these two options. Or that they are stand alone. Either school of thought is narrow minded and leads only to persecution of one another.

Uhh....you're arguing against points I never made. How the hell is this relevant? Dawkins? Evolution? Where are you getting this? I don't even read dawkins.

You know, religion in school is acceptable under one circumstance. All faiths (past and present) must be studied equally. Mithra, Zeus, Allah, the ever transforming judeo-christian god and all of their tea time friends. (yes - I know god and allah are translated the same)

[Turf1600]

#1 - parents get involved
#2 - Educators run education
#3 - allow the pre cold war pledge of allegiance in the classroom
#4 - do away with unhealthy lunches
#5 - Implement a standardized uniform
BAMMMMM I just fixed education!!!

Not fixed - but better.

[mrsleeve]

Wait.


THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION COMES WITH A MOTHERFUCKING DISCLAIMER??????????

I can always count on you to point out what the others miss when the just glaze over my right wing propaganda posts

[reelop19]

Only comes with a disclaimer from wacko publishers. School should not be free and neither should lunches. Jeez haven't you seen what they serve for lunch. Disgraceful. If there weren't government entitlement programs sure some people would suffer but guess what.....there used to not be those programs and they've only proven to get worse and make lives worse as a whole. Do away with those and how do people get help? Well they get help like they used to, churches and nice people who profit off the finest example of an economy this world has seen so far. Didn't I already say this thread blows? Lets shut it down and talk about Obama wanting to kick some ass over at the oil companies. Now that was a fine example of being a bad president.