Obamacare killing White Castle

[Wiglaf]

this sounds like a purposely played out 'worst case scenario'.

$3k per employee is a fuck of a lot more than:

-getting a better insurance rate
-covering more of the plan
-paying the person more

I still don't believe the actual numbers for % that they are saying, if that's true then their insurance rate just flat out sucks.

you know damn well they aren't about to cover the health care and then pay the fine too, the notion is ridiculous and you guys are just buying it at face value.

[reelop19]

"worst case scenario" is so far beyond this. Man things are gonna get so bad whether November comes out with republicans winning or not

[Vedubin01]

-getting a better insurance rate
-covering more of the plan
-paying the person more

I bet you still live at home...

[Wiglaf]

no, asshole, i own my own house and work hard for my money.

What the fuck would make you assume this? You read too many conservative blogs today?

[Wiglaf]

look, i understand that you can't just out of the blue pay people more or pay more into the plan. that obviously cuts into profit. The problem is not with white castle, it's with the insurance providers.

It is unacceptable that a full-time employee can't be on a plan that costs less than 10% of income even with 80%+ already covered. The insurance needs to cost less, bottom line. Hopefully this puts the pressure on, employers will drop carriers before paying this fee.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Minimum wage = what 6.25 right. If you work full time @ 40 hours a week, with 2 weeks vacation you gross out at 12,500 a year.

Now if you have to contribute just 100 a month to your HC premiums thats more than 10% of your gross income for the year. a

this sounds like a purposely played out 'worst case scenario'.

$3k per employee is a fuck of a lot more than:

-getting a better insurance rate
-covering more of the plan
-paying the person more

I still don't believe the actual numbers for % that they are saying, if that's true then their insurance rate just flat out sucks.

you know damn well they aren't about to cover the health care and then pay the fine too, the notion is ridiculous and you guys are just buying it at face value.

UMMMMM NO you dont seem to get it.


IIRC the average insurance premium cost for and individual is north of 5k and family is north of 12k a year. Now last time I checked 3000 is less than both 5000, and 12,000 dollars. There for it would be cheaper (IE better for the Business ) to just pay the fine than continue paying what they are for their portion (already more than 3k per employee I bet) and then the PENEALTY for not paying enough that the employee has to pay more the 9% of their income for it.

You know what I pay in premiums a year for health care both directly and indirectly ????? About just a few bucks more than 16,000 a year for myself and the little woman in JUST PREMIUMS. My HC is provided by my employer, so I dont see it, but I know what its worth and work my ass off. Her premiums are more than the 10% of my annual Gross income, and I do fairly well for my self.

The sooner you realize this bill is designed to force people outta that plans and level of care they have now and on to the govt system the better off you will be.

[joshh]

I'm sure it was designed that way. More money for the Government if companies are fined instead of pay for the employee.

[Wiglaf]

i love how you argue this as if paying $16k/year in premiums is ok. It is NOT ok.

In your very own argument right there you pointed out that your premiums cost more than you could even make in a year @ minimum wage.

I'll get behind ANY attempt to fix this. This whole 1/5 the economy is bullshit, needs to make itself 1/10 in a hurry.

[Ryan Stewart]

i love how you argue this as if paying $16k/year in premiums is ok. It is NOT ok.

In your very own argument right there you pointed out that your premiums cost more than you could even make in a year @ minimum wage.

I'll get behind ANY attempt to fix this. This whole 1/5 the economy is bullshit, needs to make itself 1/10 in a hurry.

It is OK if you have proper coverage. Companies are taking on a SHIT-TON of liability. This isnt car insurance with a 100k limit that so few people use. EVERYONE uses their health insurance and some for millions.

And you want it to be down to 1/10? Where does the money come from? YTou gonna tell the doctors they arent allowed to make more than $60k a year? GE cant charge 3 million dollars for a new bleeding edge machine that takes images that were not available before? Or that people with insurance dont have access to that machine.

I have $12k in insurance a year because I know when it hits the fan I can go down to MD Andersen if need be.


Not everyone deserves healthcare. They just dont. Liberals want to say its a human right but something that has to be provided by the sweat of someone else's brow can never be a human right, its a service.

[Vedubin01]

Not everyone deserves healthcare. They just dont. Liberals want to say its a human right but something that has to be provided by the sweat of someone else's brow can never be a human right, its a service.

Well said.... its messed up that no one is bitching at what Lebron is about to sign as a free agent. But will raise holy hell when someone that is in charge of your life is told to limit his financial standings.

[Wiglaf]

i'm not calling for limiting what doctors make, and I'm not saying it should be free. But there is a world of difference between the bills from the hospital and what goes to the doctor.
It's a fucking mess. One visit might net you 3 bills.

And they can't even tell you what it will be ahead of time to go in for something even remotely routine like a broken arm. Good luck shopping around or applying any other of your favorite capitalist virtues.

Overcomplicated medical billing aside, I feel that the vast majority of the problem with costs are prescription drugs. What they charge for this shit is not grounded to reality, totally out of control. And most of that issue you'd have to approach from the patent office and FDA.. or just suffer monopoly-like prices for 20 years on each new formula.
Nothing against coming out with new drugs, but we are on a timescale where 20 years might as well be an eternity, and is definitely causing research slowdowns. How backwards is that?

Every element of this system has virtually eliminated the basic equation of fair pricing via competition.

[z31maniac]

And they can't even tell you what it will be ahead of time to go in for something even remotely routine like a broken arm.

You're right.

There is only one manner in which you can break your arm and only one treatment necessary and everyone heals in the same amount of time.

One of my buddies that was in a motorcycle wreck a few years back (actually 4 of us wrecked but not the point), ended up with his wrist SHATTERED. Had his wrist immobilized with the big metal stuff with a 7 pins in his arm + the few holding the big metal bar to his arm.

Ended up having 3 different surgeries and about 3 month recovery time.

You're right. Totally routine.

[mrsleeve]

well 1st off why is what my premiums cost wrong. I can go any where any time to any any clinic doc or specialist I want or need to. Weather that be the Mayo clinic in MN, Cleveland clinic in OH if I need something for my hear done or if I need attention where ever I happen to be anywhere in the country. If some thing happens to me I go to the doc or the ER and I am taken care of weather I have 20k in my pocket or 2 bucks. Its called peace of mind, the same goes with what buy outta pocket for the little woman, its called responsibility for your self, I make sure that if some thing bad is to happen that we are not stuck with ten's - hundreds of thousands of dollars in Debt from medical bills. Could I get cheaper HC, sure I could, but I travel a LOT all over the place, and I need something that works everywhere in the nation not some shitty HOM that only works one geographical region of one state, and will try to wezel outta paying for anything and cost you 5k before they will consider picking up a bill..

i'm not calling for limiting what doctors make, and I'm not saying it should be free. But there is a world of difference between the bills from the hospital and what goes to the doctor.
It's a fucking mess. One visit might net you 3 bills.

Fairly sure we have been over this before, but here we go again. 1 the medi system (you know medi-care and medi-caid the govt systems) in most instances DONT PAY ENOUGH TO COVER THE COST OF WHAT EVER THE PERSON NEEDED. The govt says we will just pay xxx dollars for a procedure that may cost xxxx to preform. Now if a hospital wants to partake in govt grants (for upgrades and new equipment) and tax breaks and what not, THEY HAVE TO TAKE MEDI patients. Now since the govt does not pay its fair share those costs have to be made up else where, in the cost charged to both walk in RETAIL customers, and insurance companies

Next you have doc charging 3-400 an hour because they have Bills to pay too, you know they have Rent/building payments, staff to pay, expensive equipment to buy and pay for, expensive consumables associated with the practice of medicine, Pharmaceuticals, TAXES, and of course MALPRACTICE INSURANCE, which can be more than 200k a year, depending on what you do. They provide a service that is costly to provide in terms of cost of doing business and in education and training. Really would you be willing to spend 8 years of your life in school and over 100k dollars in the education costs just to earn 60k a year?????

And they can't even tell you what it will be ahead of time to go in for something even remotely routine like a broken arm. Good luck shopping around or applying any other of your favorite capitalist virtues.

What kind of broken arm, a Compound fracture with the bone poking outta the skin, or a hair line fracture, is there tendon or vascular/artery damage as well, Do you have x-ray vision and know all this info to call it all in and get a quote before you leave the house, is never just a simple routine broken arm.


Right just like when you are in the middle of North Dakota in the middle of nowhere and get a flat tire, you are kinda at the mercy of what is available to you in that emergency situation when you get to dealership they my find it that tire had snagged a break hose and bent a tire rod incurring you more cost. Are going to be pissed off that it costs you more than a tire, because after all thats all you knew was wrong before the experts examined it

Overcomplicated medical billing aside, I feel that the vast majority of the problem with costs are prescription drugs. What they charge for this shit is not grounded to reality, totally out of control. And most of that issue you'd have to approach from the patent office and FDA.. or just suffer monopoly-like prices for 20 years on each new formula.
Nothing against coming out with new drugs, but we are on a timescale where 20 years might as well be an eternity, and is definitely causing research slowdowns. How backwards is that?

Well it cost drug companies Billions a year in R&D to come up with all these new drugs. Out of all the ones they try they may only 2 out of 50 that are safe and marketable to the public. Now after spending all that money in R&D and testing and getting approval from the FDA to sell it they should just give it away????

WE HERE IN THE USA because of the patents on the pharma, let the companies make money to recoup the R&D costs and make some profits so there is some monetary benefit to it is why WE HERE IN THE USA DEVELOP MORE CUTTING EDGE PHARMACEUTICALS than anyone else in the world period. Other countries dont pay those premium prices for those drugs because they are govt run systems that deem many of the life saving drugs too expensive so WE HAVE to BEAR THE BRUNT OF THE COSTS, but over time those costs come down. Its no different than anything else, those who have the money will dirve the system and invitation, HC is not a right is a privilege, and if the govt had not gotten involved with it or at least paid its way and not passed the costs on to the private markets to make up the cost we would not be in this mess.

Every element of this system has virtually eliminated the basic equation of fair pricing via competition.

Never claimed the system was perfect but it works the best. Look to canada for a example, If you are a human you have to wait weeks to get a MRI or x-rays, or to even see a doc and then the drugs that you may need to save your life may be deemed to expensive by the govt.

If you are a dog and your owner has a little spare cash you can be seen that after noon and get your MIR and drugs that will save your life. NO govt = better service better prices and better care over all.

This why we have people with the means from all over the world come here to get their care, because they can get it with in a few days and not die waiting on a list.

[Ryan Stewart]

i'm not calling for limiting what doctors make, and I'm not saying it should be free. But there is a world of difference between the bills from the hospital and what goes to the doctor.
It's a fucking mess. One visit might net you 3 bills.

And they can't even tell you what it will be ahead of time to go in for something even remotely routine like a broken arm. Good luck shopping around or applying any other of your favorite capitalist virtues.

Overcomplicated medical billing aside, I feel that the vast majority of the problem with costs are prescription drugs. What they charge for this shit is not grounded to reality, totally out of control. And most of that issue you'd have to approach from the patent office and FDA.. or just suffer monopoly-like prices for 20 years on each new formula.
Nothing against coming out with new drugs, but we are on a timescale where 20 years might as well be an eternity, and is definitely causing research slowdowns. How backwards is that?

Every element of this system has virtually eliminated the basic equation of fair pricing via competition.

Further proven you have no idea what you are talking about.

Something simple like a broken arm? Let me get you an instruction booklet and lets see you resolve a broken arm without complications. Its called a fucking PRACTICE for a reason, shit isnt black and white. Even a fucking mechanic can only "quote" a price. If he finds an issue once he is in there shit can can change. Same thing when getting the foundation being repaired on your house. This shit isnt starbucks, its not a fucking mocha.

And the old (and stupid) prescription drugs argument. The longest patent for a drug is 18 years, the typical life cycle from conception to market is usually 13-14 years. That means a company has less than 5 years to recoup the research that went into developing the drug. At which point the drug goes generic and companies that didnt have to make the investment can produce the drug and sell at slim margins because they dont have that cost to pay back.

So you are basically saying that companies shouldn't be allowed to pay off their research costs and turn a profit so people would be willing to invest in them so they can develop the next drug that solves something that is a mystery now. Without that relationship there wont be new drugs developed and sold in the US.

And to be the asshole that defends these "evil, monopolistic" drug companies. My girlfriend is on a $1400 a month drug. She filed with the drug company stating she only makes <$36k a year and that her insurance runs out at $1000 annually for that specific prescription. So, guess how much this evil company DEMANDED she pay for this drug that has been on the market for only a year and does what drugs over the past few decades have failed to do? $0. Not a fucking dime. Not only that but they even pay overnight shipping (because the drug has to be kept at a cold temp) and overnight back of the automatic needles used to dispense it. Those fucking evil, capitalist bastards.

Now, to go ahead and preempt the next moronic argument that we should be able to provide a standard of healthcare for all citizens since we are a wealthy country in the modern world. Guess what, we have standards of healthcare that dont exist anywhere BUT IN THE MODERN WESTERN WORLD. This "BROKEN" system has resulted in conditions that would have been terminal 50 years ago (and still terminal in many parts of the world) being turned into fucking statistical outliers.

People expect social healthcare to provide a standard of care that only exists because of the (expensive) advances from this broken system. You dont see the single payer systems providing cutting edge care, just the commodity shit and even then you have to wait a long period to see any type of a specialist (because they suffer from a worse supply shortage than we do).


Sorry for all the swearing, its just nothing annoys me more than these fucking armchair experts who have no knowledge or experience as to what they profess to be able to set policy on (which counts for most politicians).

[Wiglaf]

Alright broken arm was a bad example. You guys are so busy being fucks that you missed the point. Pick something that IS TOTALLY ROUTINE, it won't matter.

well 1st off why is what my premiums cost wrong. I can go any where any time to any any clinic doc or specialist I want or need to. Weather that be the Mayo clinic in MN, Cleveland clinic in OH if I need something for my hear done or if I need attention where ever I happen to be anywhere in the country.

This should be expected of any plan. It should not cost more purely to have this clusterfuck un-fuck itself enough to let me pick the closest doctor.

Fairly sure we have been over this before, but here we go again. 1 the medi system (you know medi-care and medi-caid the govt systems) in most inst........................... Really would you be willing to spend 8 years of your life in school and over 100k dollars in the education costs just to earn 60k a year?????

Way to paste the standard issue kneejerk wad. I wasn't talking about medicare or capping salaries or any of that. I'm talking about this:
My GF (no insurance to complicate this) stops over at the hospital to see a doc because she has the flu or something bad. She was in and out within an hour. That day she paid a bill for ~$170. Not too bad to see a doc for a few minutes I guess. By the end of the month 4 more bills had rolled in the mail, each ranging from $60 to $400 over various services. THAT is the crap I am talking about. I can only assume they get away with it because for most people the insurance just pays it all. When she called they just went "oh sorry" and 3/4 of what she owed them just sort of disappeared. What the hell kind of shady business operates that way? Hospitals apparently.

Right just like when you are in the middle of North Dakota in the middle of nowhere and get a flat tire...

I'm sure that you could get a fairly accurate cost out of him before he heads your way, despite lack of other options. Plus lack of follow-up bills and other nonsense.

Well it cost drug companies Billions a year in R&D to come up with all these new drugs.

Billions? You are totally underestimating the profit margin here. Of course I don't think they should give them away for free, but there's no possible way to justify what half these drugs cost. I wouldn't complain if it was reasonably fair pricing, but it's not. It's monopoly pricing. Buy this pill or you don't treat condition x.

HC is not a right is a privilege

true

, and if the govt had not gotten involved with it or at least paid its way and not passed the costs on to the private markets to make up the cost we would not be in this mess.

false

We would still be in this mess even if medicaid and every other gov program had never even existed.

Never claimed the system was perfect but it works the best. Look to canada for a example, If you are a human you have to wait weeks to get a MRI or x-rays, or to even see a doc and then the drugs that you may need to save your life may be deemed to expensive by the govt.

We might be the best but you couldn't be more wrong about the service in Canada. I have family up there, depending on which aspect you are comparing they have us beat in some areas. The routine crap that 80% of people go there for is like a drive thru compared to here, especially on account of the paperwork. Only Rush and his followers push this Canada=crap service image purely as another way to bash anything remotely socialistic. They would have you believe the hospital service would drop to DMV levels.

Further proven you have no idea what you are talking about.

..... cool story bro .....

Sorry for all the swearing, its just nothing annoys me more than these fucking armchair experts who have no knowledge or experience as to what they profess to be able to set policy on (which counts for most politicians).

thanks for the copy-paste argument but i'm not calling for single payer system here. Having to shell out $1400 a month for shots doesn't make you any more or less of an armchair expert than the rest of us, just more or less boned. Glad to hear that the "evil" drug companies said 'fuck it we can let them have it for free' for you guys. Guess everyone else will just pass the buck to the insurance.. oh wait. :drink: