Prop 8

[Naplm00]

They shouldn't. This is part of the entire problem. If there were no benefits involved it would remain a mostly religious personal issue, as it should be.

I think this is the point here... in today’s society marriage is not a religious issue as observed when the practice was created. It is essentially a civil contract made at the state level, that is recognized by the federal government for tax and benefit purposes.

The religion part of the ceremony and contract is purely incidental and only effects the two parties engaging in the act of marriage.

For example:

1. Two Catholics man a woman want to marry, they apply for marriage lic at the town hall and have a priest oversee the catholic ceremony at the church and report the end result (*marriage) to the township. Bingo hitched until divorce or death.

2. A black Lutheran woman and a white Jewish man want to marry, they apply for a marriage lic at the town hall and have a judge oversee the non-denominational ceremony at the courthouse and record the end result (*marriage) for the township. Bingo hitched until divorce or death.

3. A Chinese scientologist woman and a native American woman want to marry, they apply for a marriage lic at the town hall and have a judge oversee the non-denominational ceremony at the courthouse and record the end result (*marriage) for the township. Bingo hitched until divorce or death.





Now explain to me how any of this affected YOUR LIFE. Oh wait it doesn’t. Because marriage is a contract in PERSONAL terms between two people recognized by the government.

Religion has nothing to do with it, it is simply icing on the cake.

[VicSkimmr]

There's already laws in place, all over this country that allow gay couples to have everything (medical, dental, vision and tax breaks) but the title "married". And as Markseven pointed out, if the courts called this "Union" instead of marriage, made it nearly if not identical to "Marriage", would the gay community and rights activists be happy?

Of course they would, that's all anyone is asking for. The reason they want to be able to get married is to get the legal benefits. Nobody gives a crap if they can call themselves married or not, they just want the same rights as a straight couple who are married.

[briansjacobs]

Why do married couples receive benefits? (serious question)

there is more to it, but this should get you started

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

[joshh]

Why do married couples receive benefits? (serious question)

They shouldn't. This is part of the entire problem. If there were no benefits involved it would remain a mostly religious personal issue, as it should be.

[87e30]

Why do married couples receive benefits? (serious question)

[markseven]

still a vaild point!

Dude, assisted living? Hehe.

[briansjacobs]

You think people don't choose to be gay then? You believe then... well, what exactly do you believe?

It's an incomplete parenting situation, yeah. There's a piece missing. Did I say terminate? No. Have you lost a parent at a young age? With your knee-jerk stupid ass comment, I imagine you'd "logically" think that my pop's leaving my mom at 7-8, I should have been "put down"? Or where you just totally eluding the discussion with pious extreme turn around words and straw-man arguments? Are you purposfully ignoring what I said or just trying to poke fun at it without offering a genuine counter point? Unless that was your attempt at a valid counter point and all of what I said above stands as the "logical" out come of your "reasoning".

There's already laws in place, all over this country that allow gay couples to have everything (medical, dental, vision and tax breaks) but the title "married". And as Markseven pointed out, if the courts called this "Union" instead of marriage, made it nearly if not identical to "Marriage", would the gay community and rights activists be happy?

And yet you just did. The Crusades was not a Christian movement. Many prominent Christian leaders of the day where actively against it. To the point of Martydom. They where evil men, doing evil deeds. Much like anything else and strangely in accordance with what the Bible says men do. They crave power and strive to dominate others. They use the Bible has a tool, a weapon, against other men. Negating what the Bible says and giving fluffers like you excuses to demonize, villafy and feel superior to those with Faith. Sad, I know but, you're just another pawn.

I believe people do not choose to be gay, the same thing inside of me that tells me I like women, tells them they like someone of the same sex. I have several friends that "lived a lie" and dated only people of the opposite sex because they did not want to be gay. But relationship after relationship failed. You can not choose who you are attracted to and you can not force attraction. In a similiar way that I could not forse you to be attracted to the bearded fat lady at the circus, you like what you like, and you can not explain why.

my comment on the termination was more tongue in cheek, does not translate well in a forum. I can tell you with 100% conviction that most of the gay couples I know would be better parents than many straight couple I have met. Kids do not know the difference at a young age, they just know love. I have heard the same argument over bi-racial parenting, there is just no logic to the argument.

As far as the terminology between union and marriage I have heard mixed answers on this. In general the men dont care, they just want the same rights we have. The women in general have grown up dreaming of a wedding and a marriage per say. So kind of mixed there. And you are wrong Unions do not convey the same rights anywhere in this country that marriage does, as marriage transfers over to federal rights where unions do not.

as for the crusades not being a christian movement, it is not relavant to this topic as you proved my point. Gay rape gangs are not a gay movement, so why would you bring it up?

me a pawn? really?

[briansjacobs]

Originally Posted by AARP article
Much of the reason HIV/AIDS is appearing in the older population relates to antiretroviral drugs and improved treatments, allowing people to live longer with the virus and disease. Still, the rising rate of new infections among those 50 and older is of concern.

Nearly one of every six new diagnoses of HIV is in someone aged 50 and older

Like I wrote, bad analogy.

still a vaild point!

[joshh]

I explained to you 3 fucking times how family members already have the same rights as married couples and are essentially married although it is not called that. Because of this, marriage would be redundant and impossible.

You need to shut the fuck up with the slippery slope argument. It's fucking annoying when I try to explain something to you and you just ignore my valid criticisms and continue on with your bullshit.

Guess what Josh, if you want to go about fucking your dad in the ass, no one is going to stop you. The same sex marriage debate has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this so stop with your ignorant straw man argument.

WTF are you talking about? A mom is already married to her daughter?
You haven't explained shit. And you still have not actually answered my family members marrying other family members question. And don't try fucking telling me some bullshit about how they are already "technically" married.

It has everything to do with it. they are two consenting adults just like gays are.

[kronus]

[ck_taft325is]

interesting that you think someone would choose to be gay.

so a guy skipping out makes it incomplete, so should all single women terminate?

it is not a matter of wanting something just because someone told them they can not have it, it is a matter of financial, medical and personal security. There are over 1100 difference between state and federal laws pertaining to marriage and civil unions.

and I wont use the crusades or the inquisition against all Christians

You think people don't choose to be gay then? You believe then... well, what exactly do you believe?

It's an incomplete parenting situation, yeah. There's a piece missing. Did I say terminate? No. Have you lost a parent at a young age? With your knee-jerk stupid ass comment, I imagine you'd "logically" think that my pop's leaving my mom at 7-8, I should have been "put down"? Or where you just totally eluding the discussion with pious extreme turn around words and straw-man arguments? Are you purposfully ignoring what I said or just trying to poke fun at it without offering a genuine counter point? Unless that was your attempt at a valid counter point and all of what I said above stands as the "logical" out come of your "reasoning".

There's already laws in place, all over this country that allow gay couples to have everything (medical, dental, vision and tax breaks) but the title "married". And as Markseven pointed out, if the courts called this "Union" instead of marriage, made it nearly if not identical to "Marriage", would the gay community and rights activists be happy?

And yet you just did. The Crusades was not a Christian movement. Many prominent Christian leaders of the day where actively against it. To the point of Martydom. They where evil men, doing evil deeds. Much like anything else and strangely in accordance with what the Bible says men do. They crave power and strive to dominate others. They use the Bible has a tool, a weapon, against other men. Negating what the Bible says and giving fluffers like you excuses to demonize, villafy and feel superior to those with Faith. Sad, I know but, you're just another pawn.

[markseven]

bad analogy? do some research! This is from AARP, not some crazy blog from an atheist, but AARP

http://www.aarp.org/relationships/lo...us_pushed.html

Much of the reason HIV/AIDS is appearing in the older population relates to antiretroviral drugs and improved treatments, allowing people to live longer with the virus and disease. Still, the rising rate of new infections among those 50 and older is of concern.

Nearly one of every six new diagnoses of HIV is in someone aged 50 and older

The Assisted Living Federation of America reports that the average age of assisted living residents is 86.9 years

Like I wrote, bad analogy.

[markseven]

Did you or Joshh even read my post? This isn't a sexual thing! People are going to commit sodomy and incest regardless of whether there are laws against it. There is nothing in this law that has anything to do with sex.

This is about allowing a civil union between two people of the same sex. That means tax breaks, inheritance rights, hospital visitation rights, etc. A father and son can't get married because they already have these rights!! It would be redundant!!!!

STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE IN SEXUAL TERMS!!!!!!!!! This has nothing to do with incest or even butt sex.

I missed this post.

You said that legal incest would never ever happen. Why not if it's between two consenting adults?

Heh, if gays want to be different (yes folks, homosexuality is a choice like anything else) and choose to be so, why would they want to be married so much? There where and are laws in place that are "everything but married". Including tax breaks, etc.

If you want children, you've got to have them the way they are made. In my opinion. Now, before anyone brings up, "What if a heterosexual couple cannot concieve," etc, etc... I'd say there's ways to go about it but, two guys are not fit to raise a child. Same as two women are not the full equation. Just like a guy skipping out on a girl, the equation is not complete. Or vise versa. There's a balance in parenting.

No one without kids should comment on child rearing. Sorry, you've no place or right to speak on it. You can sit there and criticize all you want, but it's just peanuts from the gallery until you've had a munchkin.

On topic, there's no reason for them to demand the "married" title beyond that they've been told they can't have it. I really think it's a lot simplier than people make it. Do I care if someone's gay? Not in the slightest. By my personal beliefs, you're just sinning like everyone else does, can and will. I don't dislike nor distrust them because of their sexual bent. Do I believe it's "un-natural" as Joshh here likes to claim? No, I believe there are perverts everywhere and they are no different. That's just the way they show it. What they've chosen as it where.

I can't stand the villification of hetero-marrieds though. Or Christians. Specially on this matter. Don't use the wack-jobs as cannon fodder to demonize the rest of anyone. Same as I wont use the roving gay rape gangs in San Fransico as evidence against all gays.

In a nutshell, homosexuals want homosexuality to be perceived as normal. Labeling homosexual unions "marriage" would bring normality to an otherwise abnormal situation. The west hollywood gay parade, the 'be as berkley as you can be', etc. segment of homosexuals solidify in my mind what can happen if homosexuality becomes "normal". I feel for conservative gays.

If CA granted the same rights marriage offers but calls it a union, would gays be satisfied?

[briansjacobs]

Heh, if gays want to be different (yes folks, homosexuality is a choice like anything else) and choose to be so, why would they want to be married so much? There where and are laws in place that are "everything but married". Including tax breaks, etc.

If you want children, you've got to have them the way they are made. In my opinion. Now, before anyone brings up, "What if a heterosexual couple cannot concieve," etc, etc... I'd say there's ways to go about it but, two guys are not fit to raise a child. Same as two women are not the full equation. Just like a guy skipping out on a girl, the equation is not complete. Or vise versa. There's a balance in parenting.

On topic, there's no reason for them to demand the "married" title beyond that they've been told they can't have it. I really think it's a lot simplier than people make it. Do I care if someone's gay? Not in the slightest. By my personal beliefs, you're just sinning like everyone else does, can and will. I don't dislike nor distrust them because of their sexual bent. Do I believe it's "un-natural" as Joshh here likes to claim? No, I believe there are perverts everywhere and they are no different. That's just the way they show it. What they've chosen as it where.

I can't stand the villification of hetero-marrieds though. Or Christians. Specially on this matter. Don't use the wack-jobs as cannon fodder to demonize the rest of anyone. Same as I wont use the roving gay rape gangs in San Fransico as evidence against all gays.

interesting that you think someone would choose to be gay.

so a guy skipping out makes it incomplete, so should all single women terminate?

it is not a matter of wanting something just because someone told them they can not have it, it is a matter of financial, medical and personal security. There are over 1100 difference between state and federal laws pertaining to marriage and civil unions.

and I wont use the crusades or the inquisition against all Christians

[BraveUlysses]

Next thing you know California is going to allow beastiality

And you'll be on the first flight when it does