The Bush Tax cuts...

[z31maniac]

"America is a land of taxation that was founded to avoid taxation."

I didn't watch your video, here at work it's blocked, but the fight wasn't over taxation it was "taxation without representation."

[joshh]

I'm not saying you have to take responsibility for anyone else. I'm just pointing out, as I did above, that cutting funding to PP would cost you 100x more down the road than keeping it in place.

You guys really are too short-sighted to look 9 months in to the future and realize that a new mom's very first (of many) doctor visits will cost more than a lifetime of birth control pills?

Because these people have been trained by our failing system that they are no longer responsible for their own debt or their own laziness/actions. Start making people responsible for their own costs on this society and you'll see America gain strength again. And some fucking pride again (for those that don't have any).
You go to the ER you get a bill and they intend to collect on it.
I've been to the ER twice before I had insurance for my inner ear condition. You know what we did, we paid them $5-$10.00 a month till it was paid off. I kid you not. We did this and it sucked but we were hurting much worse back then. But we took care of it because it was the right thing to do. Hospitals are pretty easy to work with on payment matters if they see you're trying to pay the bill.
For those who are disabled it's another matter and I'm all for taking care of them.

[Vedubin01]

"America is a land of taxation that was founded to avoid taxation."

When you have no real accountability to anyone, its really simple to take advantage of its people. Hence our GOV today! The Gov. runs like shit because they hire incompetent people to run departments. Hired not because of their educational history or manageable skills, but because they had to fill quota.

Once in the system, its easy street. Its next to impossible to get fired. Knowing that they coast....

The Federal Reserve is not GOV. but have you kept up with what the Federal Reserve has been doing? Not being held to any accountability?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYNVNhB-m0o

[Frog]

Here is an idea then, if youre family over 250k thinks they benefit from the system, "can pay more" and want to then they can. Donate. I am nowhere near $250k annually and I can afford to donate. I dont need govt to push my money into inefficient and mostly abused programs. I would prefer the choice to where my money goes. I tend to focus most of my money to medical/dental and food for children as I feel that they are really the only group that doesnt have complete control over their own destiny.

As for "middle class" struggling I'm not so sure. Despite the govt attempting to classify me as upper-middle I feel I am solidly middle. Nobody in my situation is struggling to put food on the table. Sure a lot had to give up houses and move into apartments but its where they belonged in the first place (one reason I have so much disposable right now is I didnt make myself house poor). My biggest frustration with the idea of unemployment and how dire things are is I see others of my own generation that refuse to adapt. They have been on unemployment for an extended time seeking out the same jobs they had before when it was a labor friendly market. You were a c-student who was overpaid to begin with, just because you'd have to take on a dick boss and make $10k less a year doesn't make you "underemployed."

The poor are struggling. They have no skills and with people like me consuming less there is less demand of unskilled labor in retail, manufacturing and such. But there are catch programs for them and I do support such things (although I would rather see shifting to a skills based rehab program instead of a check). I'm not a Christian but "teach a man to fish."

Its all really an attempt at social engineering and it predates Obama, that everyone deserves a perfect smile and a white picket fence. That is not the intention of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Is it safe to assume that gov't is here for the common good? That they're not some evil organization here to steal money or impose a socialist regime? I feel this way.

Everything has some sort of inefficiency, but I assume, you would think that they encourage this inefficiency, and don't strive to increase production and reduce costs?

The rich have many ways to avoid paying taxes, and sadly, a huge percentage of them do.

I seem to agree with most the things you mention in your previous post, so let me ask you: Were the Clinton tax rates for the rich 'excessive'?

[Frog]

Frog, kinda off topic, but where do you live in Atlanta?

I currently reside in Roswell.

LOL @ your avatar. So wrong!

[Ryan Stewart]

Notice I didn't say all.

I have family over the 250 bracket, they have so much money they couldn't care less to pay a little more. It really IS a LITTLE more. This doesn't bother them, because they believe (as do I) that they got rich thanks to our established society, our infrastructure, and etc.. They wouldn't move to another country just because they pay this insignificant little sum. During the Clinton days, the rich would storm into the US because of the tax heaven. The rich, today, are paying very little tax compared to the entire tax history starting from the early 1900s.

Times are tough, the government undoubtedly needs more money but the middle class is hurting so we cannot afford to tax them more. Budget cut are also a must.

Here is an idea then, if youre family over 250k thinks they benefit from the system, "can pay more" and want to then they can. Donate. I am nowhere near $250k annually and I can afford to donate. I dont need govt to push my money into inefficient and mostly abused programs. I would prefer the choice to where my money goes. I tend to focus most of my money to medical/dental and food for children as I feel that they are really the only group that doesnt have complete control over their own destiny.

As for "middle class" struggling I'm not so sure. Despite the govt attempting to classify me as upper-middle I feel I am solidly middle. Nobody in my situation is struggling to put food on the table. Sure a lot had to give up houses and move into apartments but its where they belonged in the first place (one reason I have so much disposable right now is I didnt make myself house poor). My biggest frustration with the idea of unemployment and how dire things are is I see others of my own generation that refuse to adapt. They have been on unemployment for an extended time seeking out the same jobs they had before when it was a labor friendly market. You were a c-student who was overpaid to begin with, just because you'd have to take on a dick boss and make $10k less a year doesn't make you "underemployed."

The poor are struggling. They have no skills and with people like me consuming less there is less demand of unskilled labor in retail, manufacturing and such. But there are catch programs for them and I do support such things (although I would rather see shifting to a skills based rehab program instead of a check). I'm not a Christian but "teach a man to fish."

Its all really an attempt at social engineering and it predates Obama, that everyone deserves a perfect smile and a white picket fence. That is not the intention of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

[Vedubin01]

Frog, kinda off topic, but where do you live in Atlanta?

[Frog]

I oppose it, live within the city, make more than the average household income and am still well below $250k a year. So what does that make me?

Things like the AMT and such do impact my family. My parents actually would be on the cusp of the change.

Even said, Im more concerned about equitableness. I dont have to be a millionaire because, like I posted before, I shouldnt be expected to be part of a group to give a shit about the outcome of the group should I? If that is the case then am I a "poor redneck" because I believe gays should be able to marry despite being hetero or that you shouldnt be able to own black people even though I am white?

I have a fundamental issue with the idea that "they have success, they should pay for the rest." Even with a flat tax they would be paying more (they already do account for a bulk of the income while the people at the bottom pay none). I "like" the idea that the Dems claim that this bill adds $600bil to the deficit because of the millionaires without noting that the $600bil is the total cost of the bill and that only a small portion of it actually goes towards the "millionaire's tax cut."

Also this doesnt take into account people using S-Corps that pass all of the tax burden onto themselves as the shareholders (its still lower than our corporate tax rate). But, Im sure you thought of that didn't you?

Personally, let it expire for everyone. Its not going to keep people from feeding their kids since the really poor dont pay income tax anyway. Let it expire on the condition that they also equally cut as much from the budget.

I find it funny that people who have the rape the rich/business also are the ones bitching the most about how everyone is taking their business overseas. This is a new world, you cant just bend someone over and expect them to take it when they have options. What happens is you end up with Lichtenstein, a tiny country that is wealthy despite low tax rates because everyone wants to pay taxes there instead of higher rates in the rest of Europe.

Notice I didn't say all.

I have family over the 250 bracket, they have so much money they couldn't care less to pay a little more. It really IS a LITTLE more. This doesn't bother them, because they believe (as do I) that they got rich thanks to our established society, our infrastructure, and etc.. They wouldn't move to another country just because they pay this insignificant little sum. During the Clinton days, the rich would storm into the US because of the tax heaven. The rich, today, are paying very little tax compared to the entire tax history starting from the early 1900s.

Times are tough, the government undoubtedly needs more money but the middle class is hurting so we cannot afford to tax them more. Budget cut are also a must.

[Ryan Stewart]

Obama wanted taxes like Clinton's administration.. For the rich, with a shit load of disposable income.

If you're rich, and oppose (minimally) increased tax on the rich, I understand. But most of the people bitching about it are poor rednecks.

I oppose it, live within the city, make more than the average household income and am still well below $250k a year. So what does that make me?

Things like the AMT and such do impact my family. My parents actually would be on the cusp of the change.

Even said, Im more concerned about equitableness. I dont have to be a millionaire because, like I posted before, I shouldnt be expected to be part of a group to give a shit about the outcome of the group should I? If that is the case then am I a "poor redneck" because I believe gays should be able to marry despite being hetero or that you shouldnt be able to own black people even though I am white?

I have a fundamental issue with the idea that "they have success, they should pay for the rest." Even with a flat tax they would be paying more (they already do account for a bulk of the income while the people at the bottom pay none). I "like" the idea that the Dems claim that this bill adds $600bil to the deficit because of the millionaires without noting that the $600bil is the total cost of the bill and that only a small portion of it actually goes towards the "millionaire's tax cut."

Also this doesnt take into account people using S-Corps that pass all of the tax burden onto themselves as the shareholders (its still lower than our corporate tax rate). But, Im sure you thought of that didn't you?

Personally, let it expire for everyone. Its not going to keep people from feeding their kids since the really poor dont pay income tax anyway. Let it expire on the condition that they also equally cut as much from the budget.

I find it funny that people who have the rape the rich/business also are the ones bitching the most about how everyone is taking their business overseas. This is a new world, you cant just bend someone over and expect them to take it when they have options. What happens is you end up with Lichtenstein, a tiny country that is wealthy despite low tax rates because everyone wants to pay taxes there instead of higher rates in the rest of Europe.

[Frog]

Obama wanted taxes like Clinton's administration.. For the rich, with a shit load of disposable income.

If you're rich, and oppose the (minimally) increased tax on the rich, I understand. But most of the people bitching about it are poor rednecks.

[Vedubin01]

Medicaid doesn't cover abortions. You fail.

Actually Medicaid does cover Abortions, it just varies from state to state!

You FAIL!

[Vedubin01]

lol, get rid of Medicaid? So all the poor will clog the emergency rooms, seeking care that costs ten or twenty times more? And who do you think will pay for that? You will, buddy. Through increased insurance premiums. Can you even begin to comprehend the cost to the system of dumping 20 million uninsured poor people on to the streets? Go ahead.... think about it. Then get back to me when you figure it out.

You dont provide services.... the poor Americans can act like poor Mexicans, by crossing the border into Canada for their free health care.


That was kind of a joke,

I guess you have not been to the ER in some time, its already flooded by people that cant pay. Nothing new in the ER.

Hospitals get reimbursed by the government for those that cant or do not pay already.

[CorvallisBMW]

First, its Medicaid not Medicare that would take care of that problem. And I say do away with Medicaid completely. No fucking handouts for anyone!

Your example is the lack of family values and morals. The responsibility falls back on the family of said teens. Not the back of the American people!

As for your filibuster, the tax issue is a more important issue due to the fact there is only 18 days left in this year before the tax rate goes back to pre-Bush tax break. Get that taken care of and then Im sure they will take care of the few 9-11 responders.

lol, get rid of Medicaid? So all the poor will clog the emergency rooms, seeking care that costs ten or twenty times more? And who do you think will pay for that? You will, buddy. Through increased insurance premiums. Can you even begin to comprehend the cost to the system of dumping 20 million uninsured poor people on to the streets? Go ahead.... think about it. Then get back to me when you figure it out.

I'm not debating where the responsibility lies. I am just pointing out that cutting $350M from PP will cost you $3.5B in Medicaid because it's 100x more expensive to raise a child than to prevent a teen pregnancy in the first place.

You want to cut the budget and save money? Prevention is always cheaper than treatment after the fact.

And yes, the tax cuts are important. But why does everything else have to be denied? They brought the bill up for debate and voted on it, it wouldn't have taken any more time to vote 'yes' as opposed to 'no'. It's still a snub to the American people and the 9/11 responders.

Holy shit, could not agree anymore!!! Why should I pay for a girls abortion?? It's not my responsibility. Fuck medicaid in general :hitler:

Medicaid doesn't cover abortions. You fail.

Because that's my problem why?

Because education and handing out birth control is such a terrible idea right.

But this goes over your head because you think that the rest of us are responsible for everyone else. Your Socialistic fantasy doesn't and wont work.
Large extended families have been torn apart over the years by the liberal idea that these people don't need their families because the Government will take care of them. Thus you get more and more retards being held up by Planned Parenthood type groups promising hope they can't give.

I'm not saying you have to take responsibility for anyone else. I'm just pointing out, as I did above, that cutting funding to PP would cost you 100x more down the road than keeping it in place.

You guys really are too short-sighted to look 9 months in to the future and realize that a new mom's very first (of many) doctor visits will cost more than a lifetime of birth control pills?

[joshh]

An abortion is cheaper than 18 years of them living off welfare and potentially going into the jail system; short cited answers like family values show that people have no understanding of social/economic morality issues that face this country. Not everyone makes excellent decisions all the time; some people make bad choices and do not understand that because they were never taught that. Common sense and morals are not born in us, there taught to us. I'm not stating hands outs should be everywhere but there is not simple answer that people make good and bad decisions such as getting pregnant at 16.

Subsidies benefit a lot of people, you like cheap milk, bread, and eggs well that's because its subsidized.
There a lot of people that have no idea that the childcare there children received, EVEN some of our members received was subsidized so your parents could go to work and pay into the system opposed to sit on there ass at home.

As for tax cuts, its been stated by quite a few wealthy people that an extra couple thousand dollars does not mean shit to them; they'll find ways to recoupe it.

What happens when you give someone a hand out and fail to let them learn from their mistakes? The answer is they keep making them. It's not a mistake if there's a lack of consequences. And they continue down the same road of bad decisions.

Subsidies are currently necessary because the system is broken.

[joshh]

Ya, and end up with millions of pregnant teens and newborn babies to load up the Medicare ranks... that'll help.

Because that's my problem why?

Because education and handing out birth control is such a terrible idea right.

But this goes over your head because you think that the rest of us are responsible for everyone else. Your Socialistic fantasy doesn't and wont work.
Large extended families have been torn apart over the years by the liberal idea that these people don't need their families because the Government will take care of them. Thus you get more and more retards being held up by Planned Parenthood type groups promising hope they can't give.