Irishman tells it like it is!

[structured]

Yes, the idiot homeowners who spread themselves too thin deserved to lose their homes (and they are getting just that). But why the fuck should I have to suffer for it? The entire economy has been fucked by this overspending by the middle class and the stupid, greedy business practices by the financiers. As a result, everybody is getting the shaft.

I am lucky to have a job, but my employer owes me over two months salary because all of our clients can't get financing anymore or they are stingy criminals and don't want to pay. I keep working because I'm not a bitch and it's better than collecting unemployment (like many of my former colleagues have chosen to do). Still, I'm mad as fuck at all of the assholes who caused this mess. That goes for the dumbass homeowners who got duped into or duped others into giving them crappy deals just the same as it goes for the rich fucks who profited from it.

Food for thought: At the end of a battle who do you charge with war crimes? The single soldier who killed a civilian or the commander who didn't do anything to stop him and the thousands of others like him? I'm saying we should go after the commanders of this retarded mess. i.e. the CEOs who are getting huge bonuses right now instead of collecting welfare like they should be.

We have a culture of debt in this society which allows for things like homes and cars to be ridiculously expensive compared to salaries. I believe that this culture was created - or at least encouraged - by financial institutions who profit from people's debt. As a result, you can no longer afford a roof over your head without taking a loan. Many people (not all) took those loans while they appeared to be financially stable. Unfortunately, far too many were not, they defaulted, and the housing market collapsed. The economy went with it.

Take for example the homeowner who had been stable financially but now lost his job to no real fault of his own. After a year or so of paying out of his rainy day account, his savings are gone. He can't sell his house because it is worth less than he owes. Again, to no real fault of his own. Is it really that guy's fault? Should he suffer for other's stupidity?

My point is only that it is not as simple as "everyone who is suffering did something to deserve it". Our economic culture encourages - almost requires - debt. We can't plan for the economy's failure. I mean, when I'm at the bank filing for a loan, should I think to myself "I'm an engineer, but maybe I should buy a janitor sized home just in case some other idiots ruin the fucking world again". Fuck that.

/I'm outta here

[z31maniac]

wow you completely misunderstood me man.
i totally agree that people should not take out irresponsible loans that they know they most likely will not be able to pay back.
what i was trying to say is the banks, and other loan agencies, also did not deny their loans. i think it is a responsible loan agents job to deny loans to people who can not pay them back. why?

This is part of the problem, most financial institutions that write mortgages don't continue to "own the loan."

First Financial that made the determination I could buy my house, sold the loan 30 days later, most likely as part of a package to large investment bank or in my case, Bank of America. There was no incentive for First Financial to deny my application. Why? Because if they originated the loan, they would get their fees and such, sell the loan and not have to worry if I could actually pay it back. Which leads us to CDOs and everything else that actually brought down the economy.


Secondly, it's not the banks job to be your mommy/daddy and tell you what you can and can't afford. I bought my house last Sept. and even then, do you know what they determine is an "affordable" loan?

44% of your gross salary is what they determine your payment can be (well with escrow/insurance/pmi/taxes), or in other words, nearing 65% of YOUR TAKE HOME PAY!!!!!

So essentially, if you made $35k/ year or take home approx $2100/month, they will let you have a house payment as large as $1300/month!!! My house payment is approx half that and I make more than $35k/year.

How could any person think leaving yourself $200 a week for bills/groceries/insurance/clothes/car/emergency/401k/savings/vacation/fun is a good idea? Do you really need a bank to tell you these things?

My bank told me I was approved for approaching $300k on my salary alone, not even including my wife (we weren't married at the time, but considered buying the house in both our names, which we didn't do).

So how much did we spend on a house? 1/3 of what I was approved for, and we pay for it with two incomes instead of one.

Were banks being irresponsible? Yes.
Does the vast majority of blame still lay at the feet of over-extended homeowners who feel the incessant need to keep up with the Joneses? Abso-fucking-lutely.

[structured]

^ Every single thing that you said is absolutely true, but it still leaves us with a major issue. The people who caused this mess are not the only victims. I am not a homeowner, and do not intend to be one until I can really afford it, yet my life has been greatly impacted.

Three years ago I was turning down interviews and had the blessing to choose between job offers. Today, I have an employer who can't affors to pay me and I can't get a phone call back from job postings.

Not looking for sympathy here, just using my own example because it is the one that I know best.

[z31maniac]

Unfortunately, that's just how it goes.

[pureaudio]

Were banks being irresponsible? Yes.
Does the vast majority of blame still lay at the feet of over-extended homeowners who feel the incessant need to keep up with the Joneses? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Completely agree with this. I bought my house about 4 years ago, right at the prime before it all came crashing down. We put it offers left and right trying to get a home and couldn't because we were making the mistake of offering asking price. We were getting beat out by people who sight unseen would slap down a more than asking price offer, the banks weren't the ones making that happen.

We were approved for almost double what we spent on a house in the end but the person doing our loan stuff was a good family friend and wouldn't preapprove us. We found out quickly why and that was because all the Realtors cared about was how much we could spend, not what our self imposed budget was based on what we could afford.

The root of the problem is the masses are idiots but everyone in the housing market took advantage of it. To blame just the banks is ridiculous, they were just approving people for money, everyone else in realty was spending it for them.

[Ryan Stewart]

The root of the problem is the masses are idiots but everyone in the housing market took advantage of it. To blame just the banks is ridiculous, they were just approving people for money, everyone else in realty was spending it for them.

Lets not forget the govt was backing un-sustainable loans. Even before the assets were known to be toxic Freddie/Fannie were backing the sub-prime market.

I just couldnt get over the number of people in my neighborhood (upper-middle white) who were cashing in their equity on shit. Cash it in to build a pool, a theater in the basement a car. Whatever. It kind of goes against the whole point of equity in my opinion, which is to not be renting your house.

[mrsleeve]

Lets not forget the govt was backing un-sustainable loans. Even before the assets were known to be toxic Freddie/Fannie were backing the sub-prime market.

I just couldnt get over the number of people in my neighborhood (upper-middle white) who were cashing in their equity on shit. Cash it in to build a pool, a theater in the basement a car. Whatever. It kind of goes against the whole point of equity in my opinion, which is to not be renting your house.

Not to mention the "Guidelines" From Barney and Chris, and other cronies in congress pulling the strings at the Mac's that basically forced the banks to loan larger portions of their balance sheets to sub prime borrowers. After is its not fair that poor irresponsible people cant own a house too and have to rent all their lives, now is it ??????

[structured]

You can't blame this on the stupid (or maybe just ignorant but what's the difference?) homeowners. You have to blame the people who knew better (i.e. banks, and gov't). Why? Because they fucking knew better!

If you get conned by some scam artist because you're a total idiot then the scam artist is still a fucking scam artist!


Anyway, this argument about blame is stupid because it's after the fact. We are already screwed. It's about policy going forward. Those of you who think that government needs to step aside and let the dummies get what's coming to them (along with the rest of us) are missing the point. Why, if we know what practices lead to this, shouldn't we do something about it in the future by making them illegal? Oh yeah, because they are dumb and they deserve it (and so do we).

[mrsleeve]

You can't blame this on the stupid (or maybe just ignorant but what's the difference?) homeowners. You have to blame the people who knew better (i.e. banks, and gov't). Why? Because they fucking knew better!

The people knew better than that too. They KNEW THEY COULD NOT AFFORD IT. but did it any way. SO that makes this just a big circle jerk blame

If you get conned by some scam artist because you're a total idiot then the scam artist is still a fucking scam artist!

Yup but where do you draw that line. Were these people legitimately scammed, ehhhh maybe a FEW, but the vast majority got them selves into their situation they should have to get them selves outta it. The lack of accountability for ones actions is disgusting in society now. You make your own bed you have to lie in it.

Anyway, this argument about blame is stupid because it's after the fact. We are already screwed. It's about policy going forward. Those of you who think that government needs to step aside and let the dummies get what's coming to them (along with the rest of us) are missing the point. Why, if we know what practices lead to this, shouldn't we do something about it in the future by making them illegal? Oh yeah, because they are dumb and they deserve it (and so do we).

If the GOVT didnt get involved and force the banks to loan to those that should not have been, along with basicly taking the risk outta it all for the banking industry made a recipe for disaster. Greed took over and the rest is history.

If the govt had not gotten involved and pushed this and given the banks an environment full of opportunity to pull this shit we would not be here. If it was left for the banks to determine merit to loan, and left the risk on them (where it fucking belongs) WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION for banks would not loan to someone making 12 bucks an hour pushing a mop for a 1/4 million dollar home (with out 175k down of course).

We dont need more laws in regards to common sense, we just need to restore the free market system and let get the govt outta of trying to engineer society with policy that is counter intuitive to common sense, good business, and the laws of economics and physics

[Ryan Stewart]

Not to mention the "Guidelines" From Barney and Chris, and other cronies in congress pulling the strings at the Mac's that basically forced the banks to loan larger portions of their balance sheets to sub prime borrowers. After is its not fair that poor irresponsible people cant own a house too and have to rent all their lives, now is it ??????

That is essentially what got the ball rolling. Not saying they are 100% to blame for this but they essentially said that the govt had to back sub-prime loans, which means its telling the banks "loan to people who are a credit risk, we got this." Unfortunately, they dont got this. And since the banks (wrongly) assumed the govt would be able to back all of the toxic debt they couldnt get this, nor could their insurance companies.

A tiny thing like attempting to help minorities get into homes has snowballed into this. That is one of my biggest beefs with anything govt does, its always short-sighted and never really takes into account how things will actually go down.

[joshh]

Let's not forget that Fannie and Freddie weren't just giving out loans, they were giving out loans to people they knew couldn't afford it. Low income people.

If i get scammed from a scam artist (as long as I had a choice) then i blame myself. Getting a loan for a $250k home while you only make 40k a year is stupidity.