$5 Gas in 2012?

[Vedubin01]

I think we need new pipelines, but enbridge has a horrible safety record. There is good reason to be concerned.

Enbridge is a Canadian company correct? Is there someone else that is capable of doing the job with a better track record?

[mrsleeve]

^
Yes they have been buying up smaller US shippers for decades, The issue they had in MI 2 years ago was a line built in 67 for then Great Lakes Pipeline. Their safety record is rather good for the amount of old shit they hold, if you ask me. I have been on some dig up work on some of those old old still in service shit and really it even scares me with what was still in service we see some times. Thats why they run smart tools and we do anomaly digs, to limp these old lines along, since getting new stuff permitted in some places is near impossible

I think we need new pipelines, but enbridge has a horrible safety record. There is good reason to be concerned.

Nando you know as well as I do Enbridge's current issues stem from OLD infrastructure that has been in the ground for DECADES. Most of that shit we have in this country was laid between the mid 50-and early 70's most all of it is well past original design life. I dont think I need point out the differances in older shit Vs what we build now to you ;)

[nando]

The pipeline that just failed was built in 1996... So, no, that's not the only issue. Their stance is "accidents happen" which is NOT acceptable. Imagine how scary it would be to work at a refinery with an attitude like that towards worker safety.

[mrsleeve]

Are you talking about the 14 Line in Wisconsin??? Or the above ground line in Canada ??? I guess I should have phrased it, Most of Enbridges issues stem from OLD shit.

14 line is part of the old Great lakes/ Lake head system built in the 60's

The Canadians are really big on the phased array AUT (automated ultrasonics) for their NDT/QC/QA when the build shit. Back in the 90s it is was still in the early stages of proving a viable means of NDT inspection on production welding in a pipeline environment, very conceivable a defect was missed or not interpreted correctly back then. Not that thats an excuse as they should have smart pigged in the last 18 years at least once and found something like that.

But Yes accidents do happen unfortunately, and sometimes you just have deal with the aftermath. One thing you have to remember we have improved metallurgy greatly since even the 90's. You know what I do, and accidents are part of the equation, its a risk you take when you go to work, we are all aware of it.

[nando]

Sure, but their attitude is inappropriate. It shows little concern for avoiding them and improving safety of their pipelines.

The local refineries have had accidents and will probably have them in the future. But their attitude isn't "oh well" it's "lets do everything we can to improve safety and avoid them". Because in the end, it costs them money.

[mrsleeve]

I guess you have never worked for Enbridge or TransCanada, Enterprise, Williams-transCo. Kinder Morgan, or the like in the filed. Their stance on working safe, is so stringent and off the deep end, that in my opinion causes more issues and injuries than it saves. As everyone is too worried about not getting run off, for some minor safety violation, than concentrating on the job or task at hand. This is even on NEW construction.

Yes I do agree that Enbridge should be stepping up their integrity program and smart pigging more of their older lines more frequently


Oh and enbridge is not building the Keystone XL. TransCanada is :)

[nando]

Well, I was using worker safety as a comparison. Enbridge responded with "accidents happen" when asked about pipeline safety of their proposed line through BC.

They likely have a different attitude towards workers, because they've never been given more than a slap on the wrist for any of their many pipeline spills.

[mrsleeve]

As nonchalant as it is, it really is the truth. Because those that say we will never have an accident are the ones that really scare me.

[herbivor]

As nonchalant as it is, it really is the truth. Because those that say we will never have an accident are the ones that really scare me.

I'm sure you have more knowledge on this subject than I do but you obviously admit there are environmental risks. I suppose you are saying the pipeline is worth the risks? Then why do you think the Obama Administration and many land owners think otherwise? They have to have a logical reason for not wanting to build it. Enlighten me of why that is.

[Vedubin01]

I'm sure you have more knowledge on this subject than I do but you obviously admit there are environmental risks. I suppose you are saying the pipeline is worth the risks? Then why do you think the Obama Administration and many land owners think otherwise? They have to have a logical reason for not wanting to build it. Enlighten me of why that is.

Obama is not for Big Oil and the land owners will not get paid what they think its worth to run pipe though their land.

[herbivor]

Obama is not for Big Oil and the land owners will not get paid what they think its worth to run pipe though their land.

I think there is more to it than that, a better answer.

[mrsleeve]

I'm sure you have more knowledge on this subject than I do but you obviously admit there are environmental risks. I suppose you are saying the pipeline is worth the risks? Then why do you think the Obama Administration and many land owners think otherwise? They have to have a logical reason for not wanting to build it. Enlighten me of why that is.

really ????? Are you just trolling me now or something???

We have over 2 million miles of in service oil/gas/products lines in this country. Most were built decades ago, how often are there issues???? NOT very considering the shear amount of them. Those have been in service for 30+ years are built with softer steels, crappy anti corrosion controls and coatings, not to mention less stringent procedures and techniques and construction over sight, than we use today. The fact they are still in service and for the most part still delivering products to the tune of billions of barrels of year nearly 100% issue free, all over the place should tell you something about how long the new stuff we are building now will hold up over the next century.

The synopsis for the O-mans energy policy. "prices will necessarily sky rocket". His energy policy has used the EPA, federal land grabs, nonexistent govt leases sales, along with other regulatory measures to shut in and lock out vast amounts of conventional resources from both domestic off shore and land based recovery. All while claiming drilling is up in the US, Yup sure is on PRIVATE land that the he can have little influence over.

You hippies hate oil we know that, especially Alberta tar sands oil. Pipelines are the flavor of the day villain of the enviro nazis. You guys protest the construction of NEW, latest and greatest tech and supplies that will take some demand off the old and decaying shit. You bitch and claim it will poison the ogallala, but totally discount the current OLD and Dieing 22,000 miles of Products line already running though the very same area. The O man hates cheap energy this is a fact. As far as "land owners, 99% of them you see on TV against it" are not along the route they my be adjacent to it but they are not getting any thing out of the deal or any lease or damages money for it so yeah, or if they are, are pissed they didnt get as much as their neighbors got in their deals.



Edit: Fear and ignorance are the primary tools you guys use. In fact about 10 years ago when I lived in MI I was waiting on a 10" products new construction job form Lansing to north Mt Pleasant a tank farm to tank farm job to get Gas, Diesel and other liquid fuels north easier. Well all you saw on the news was to suburban soccer moms who lived along the purposed route saying that their fire place was 85 feet from the line and that was going to blow up and kill them all. When in reality ( I saw the prints) Pipe wall in densely populated areas .500 wall pipe and a burial depth of 7 foot minimum after those concerns were raised. These people started the commotion after initial approval for the job, pipe had been bought ROW was being bought up, people being mobilized and so on. Well 2 grew into 4, into 10 into what seemed like the entire community in about a 2 mile stretch about 98% of those people were not along the route nor would be affected them if there was an emergency in the future. But then they were not getting any lease money or anything out it either. The use of fear over the ignorant

All in the name of safety of the children, yet too this day there are 160 and up too 250 tanker truck loads a day shipping the same product on the public highway system between the farms. You tell me which has a greater environmental and human safety risk????/

[rwh11385]

I'd always give the benefit of any doubt on pipelines to sleeve...

But I don't think that the XL would help our gas prices, although it'd greatly help our oil companies as well as jobs. Plenty of suppliers for the construction were from around the midwest. Plus, like people have argued a lot, it's a private venture so gov kiss off..... as long as things are safe and up to standard.

I think nando may have been referring to this previous issue-prone TransCanada job: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/m...501b8df75.html
or concerns about pipe quality: http://plainsjustice.org/files/Subst...teelReport.pdf

Although that should be protected again and ensured not to repeat, not an all-out roadblock to it. That's just overly simple and close-minded (of the President and protesters). There's been plenty of things that have gone wrong when done poorly, but fine while done right. Just throwing out the baby with the bath water is silly.

But in other news... yeah, that's gonna impact gas prices in California... http://fuelfix.com/blog/2012/08/07/e...st-gas-prices/

[mrsleeve]

Not that it would help prices at the pump, as oil is globally traded. But it would help secure our own supplies, and from a close and friendly source for decades to come. It will also allow for our own domestic supplies an easy route to refiners.

Yes its a a know fact that Welspun had some bad pipe a while back, and thats why every pipe in the ground is tracked with a heat number (to track its batch of steel and manufacturer) from mill to final instillation point. If the heat number is lost or a partial joint is used and the heat is not transferred to the unused portion. Well you cant use that portion of pipe in the line.

. Transcanada and Welspun know what heat numbers are in that line and where each joint of pipe out of those batches lies to with in millimeters. They know where they may have bad pipe. While expanding pipe is generally a bad thing, shippers occasionally do a spike test aka SMYS (specified minimum yield strength). Its a type of hydro test where you go to nearly 100% yield of the the pipe it self and stretch it and hold it at that pressure for a prescribed amount of time. then put the line back in service, so stretched pipe is not necessarily a bad thing, this is why the regulators have laxed the standard. Decades of data from spike tests on old stuff still in the ground .

While its good they have gone back and found anomalies, its not really the fault of the shipper, now is it, that was a foreign manufacture, and the QA/QC on their end. That and they are providing no details, it could be something as simple as a small dent from natural settlement and a rock under the pipe or in the padding materiel that was missed, or a bad weld fit up that the tool has found that was determined to be good when under construction. An anomaly is not necessarily a case of bad pipe or need to be replaced.

[rwh11385]

Yeah, stuff like the problems ran into should be a cause for quality improvement initiative, not a "derp, let's forget the whole idea because of some issues". (Although some people exercise that thinking regularly...) It's good to know that pipes are serialized like other important products - it's not like it's all mystery metal, tracking to the source / batch is valuable.