Income inequality in the US. [infographic]

[Ryann]

The laws of nature dictate that the most productive individuals will be the most successful in life, laws that our society currently defy. Develop your skills, people. When the Almighty Dollar folds, the winning hand will be yours.

[KennyT]

There is another part of the equation you guys are missing within reference to the 'poor' or lower class you are talking about. Those whom I have met in this area are not living on the street, they are not in low income housing, they are not going through winter without a coat. They have cars, cell phones, new clothes, and a tv in the living room.

The 'American Dream' is held to such a high standard these days that lots of people are living how they think they should whether they can or not. People I graduated high school with are now over their heads in debt, shit job barely paying for it. However, they still have cable, internet, cell phone, and usually a car payment on top of it.

Working hard, saving money and getting by are mostly lost on my generation, less so on my parents but still there.

[shiftbmw]

Wealth has an incredible amount to do with timing, luck and yes, calculated risk. We're not all created equal and that's the hard fact. Some of us are laborers. Some of us are leaders. Some of us are cut throat, do anything for a profit, CEO's. All good and dandy but that doesn't mean you should piss on the backs of those supporting your business with poor practices based just on "profits".

First, know that leaders, CEO's, and cutthroats are all ALSO laborers. Second, know that traits like leadership can be learned, just as becoming less shy can be learned. Also, don't give luck too much credit. It's a component sure, but the whole point of calculating risk is minimizing luck's chance to be a player in the game.

I work at a big box company. Their profits are up this year. They just cut 5 positions of management and told each person, at every store across the nation (and Mexico) that they can take a 20% pay decrease or get the fuck out.

What the fuck, right? Maybe I'm getting a bit more liberal but that doesn't seem right to me. "Go get a better job" - sure, sure. Shut the hell up. You don't realize what it's like to get your teeth kicked in over and over in a down turn economy where $15 an hour jobs (which still isn't enough to pay your electricity and feed your kids) are packed with over 700 applicants. That's the harsh reality of the "majority" of people. "Should have stayed in school!" - sure, sure. Shut the hell up. This idea that everyone will be a movie star, or a CEO or has all the same doors open is a straw man argument based in nothing more than high and mighty ideals with no grounding in reality. It shouldn't be the poor get shafted just because they are poor. Poor doesn't mean you fucked off everyday of your life. Some of the poorest people I know work harder than 90% of us here.

I think you would do well to realize that companies generally operate on capitalist principles, and capitalism is just a predictable, emotionless vehicle designed to maximize profit. Always. It doesn't care about you, and it never will. The sooner someone realizes this simple fact and internalizes it, the sooner they can exploit and leverage capitalism instead of constantly being surprised and victemized by it.

I'm not going to tell you to go get a better job. I'm going to tell you to learn the system such that you can predict it and position yourself accordingly. I'm also not going to tell you that everybody will be a movie star or a CEO. Some people just don't give enough of a fuck to excel. That's good though, it leaves more meat on the bone for those willing to act.

You say you've gotten your teeth kicked in over and over...you should learn from the first time or two and ADAPT. If the problem is that you don't have the right skillset(be it outdated or what have you) to be competitive in your job market, and you don't take measures to obtain the right skillset, you're probabaly going to continue to get fucked. Excuses for resistance to change are usually just a thin veil to cover lazyness, fear, or unwillingness to make a little sacrifice because people are too "comfortable". I hear it all the time...

Also, a lot of "poor" people aren't really as poor as they think. They are poor as a result of poor financial habits. Some simple budgeting/saving measures and a few smart, basic investment moves(think retirement account) can all be learned in a book bought for 10 bucks. Unfortunately, it is all too common in America to have the earn to spend mentality instead of the earn to invest mentality and that ruins people. The American dream is appealing, but people didn't achieve it without hard work and dilligence in the past. Our current generation thinks they are entitled to the American dream and it doesn't work that way.

[Ray Smoodiver]

you know every time this comes up i laugh
if it weren't for the rich there might not have been any income gain at all, and they pay their fair share of the tax burden (more than their fair share imho).
they're not robbing you are they? how do yo think they make as much as they do? clip coupons and gather dividends? they do stuff, take risk, and get rewarded.
the rich today pay the highest % of all federal income taxes collected in history, even as tax brackets were reduced modestly. yet somehow this is unfair.
we can exchange statistics all day long and never reach a conclusion.

the solution to getting the poor to earn more is to create jobs and let them keep more of what they earn.

high tax rates inhibit both.

and isn't it interesting that corporate taxes as a % have gone down as their tax rates have remained high? its called tax avoidance. form a corp and pay dividends instead of W2 wages. presto, 15% tax bracket.

and another interesting add to your tax rate thru history graph, showing marginal rates being low and high thru history.
during all that time period, no matter the marginal rate, the federal govt took about 20% of economic output as fed income tax, NO MATTER THE RATE! high, low, the same % collected.

and during all that time of low, high, and low federal tax rates, with one minor exception, the federal govt always always always spent more than they brought in.

I'd tell you to have my babies if I didn't know how dusty your balls were.

[ck_taft325is]

First, know that leaders, CEO's, and cutthroats are all ALSO laborers. Second, know that traits like leadership can be learned, just as becoming less shy can be learned. Also, don't give luck too much credit. It's a component sure, but the whole point of calculating risk is minimizing luck's chance to be a player in the game.



I think you would do well to realize that companies generally operate on capitalist principles, and capitalism is just a predictable, emotionless vehicle designed to maximize profit. Always. It doesn't care about you, and it never will. The sooner someone realizes this simple fact and internalizes it, the sooner they can exploit and leverage capitalism instead of constantly being surprised and victemized by it.

I'm not going to tell you to go get a better job. I'm going to tell you to learn the system such that you can predict it and position yourself accordingly. I'm also not going to tell you that everybody will be a movie star or a CEO. Some people just don't give enough of a fuck to excel. That's good though, it leaves more meat on the bone for those willing to act.

You say you've gotten your teeth kicked in over and over...you should learn from the first time or two and ADAPT. If the problem is that you don't have the right skillset(be it outdated or what have you) to be competitive in your job market, and you don't take measures to obtain the right skillset, you're probabaly going to continue to get fucked. Excuses for resistance to change are usually just a thin veil to cover lazyness, fear, or unwillingness to make a little sacrifice because people are too "comfortable". I hear it all the time...

Also, a lot of "poor" people aren't really as poor as they think. They are poor as a result of poor financial habits. Some simple budgeting/saving measures and a few smart, basic investment moves(think retirement account) can all be learned in a book bought for 10 bucks. Unfortunately, it is all too common in America to have the earn to spend mentality instead of the earn to invest mentality and that ruins people. The American dream is appealing, but people didn't achieve it without hard work and diligence in the past. Our current generation thinks they are entitled to the American dream and it doesn't work that way.

Actually, none of that had to do with me. Just observations. In fact, I understand where you're coming from, but again, your hard line, this is the only way it is, is a thin failure of an argument. I've been in numerous fields. Some I've enjoyed, some not so much. The soul sucking architecture of big box retail stores that treat their employee's like shit? Sorry, you can say it's awesome for maximizing profits, but it's a shit company none the less. Did I mention soul sucking? Heh, this is my first retail job. It'll be my last and within two weeks of getting it because I had to I kept looking. And let me reiterate once more, I never said this was my personal experience. I was criticizing your lack of experience.

Not sure you caught it, I know more hard working people that are "poor", as in have to cancel their phone's, which, sorry, are a BASIC thing if you actually want to have a job in this Country, to feed their families. Cable? What fucking cable? TV? Sorry, don't have one. Car? Nope, my Dad rode a bike 12 miles rain or shine for 4 years to manage a pizza store until 4 am to come home, shower and go to work for 6 doing construction. I bet he was just lazy, huh?

Simple budget and saving? I can agree with that. I would point out if you're really going to be taking calculated risk, that "retirement" plan you saved for might get lost along the way. If you don't have the money to invest or save because you have to put food on the table, where's that calculated risk going to come from? See, you're missing something in all of your fiscal responsibility speech. Life. It happens and takes a dump down your throat when you don't have the money. You make ends meet because you have to do what you have to do. Yeah, sometimes that's 3 jobs at minimum wage. How exactly are you supposed to go about making calculated risks and smart budgeting and saving when you don't have more than 5 nickels at the end of the month? This is what I'm talking about. You're talking about the "middle class" that have over extended themselves thinking that awesome Dot com and housing bubble gravy train where going to go on and on. I'm talking about the back bone. The hard working, hard pressed, un lazy types. While you like to categorize them so blithely as "lazy, unmotivated" and so on is to claim that "if they weren't those things they wouldn't be so poor!". Right. Take off your shiny one way street blinders and get a clue.

You keep marginalizing and categorizing a whole majority of people that have nothing to do with what you're claiming.

What do you do that you can say "I hear it all the time..." if you don't mind me asking?

[z31maniac]

Oh and when our company sponsored insurance premiums went up 30% this year.............the fund that pays for our claims (our company is self-insured) more than doubled from $2 billion to over $5 billion.

And we get monsterous raises in our premiums and raises that don't meet the CPI? Even if you have an "exemplary" performance review? How do you position yourself better, if it really is like all you guys say, that capitalism doesn't give a damn about me and the CEO's will only reward themselves?

[mar1t1me]

From the desk of the CEO of United Employee Fuckers: The word of the day is Fuck the Employees! Unemployment is high. Don't like your deal? Then fuck off. We'll replace you with another poor dumb SOB who will lap up whatever we feel like offering today.

....And once our bought-and-paid-for politicians finish killing off collective bargaining rights, then we'll really be able to sock it to you! Health care? You wish. Retirement? You can't afford it. Let's see you save any money when everything costs more every year, but you make less. We will own your ass.

For those idealists who believe all you have to do is work hard-wake up! Hard work only gets you so far. If that's all it took there would be at least a few rich CEOs posting on here because you all bust your asses! Luck plays a huge part. Used to be you'd work your way up in a company over the years. Get an entry level job and show up everyday and as long as you possessed a modicum of intelligence, and didn't really fuck anything up, you'd move up the ladder. Retire after 30 years and start your second life enjoying the fruits of your life's labors. But that is over for the vast majority of working Americans.

Buy your patch of land near a small town in an agricultural area and learn a meaningful and useful trade, because when the economy finishes blowing up, the only people who will get through will be the ones that can actually do something useful with their hands and brains. We may have to eat all those stockbrokers and bank CEOs......;)

[gwb72tii]

That's a nice theory, but it's a fact that not everyone can be successful or wealthy. It just can't happen. The success comes from other people; one persons gain is another persons loss. Most people will be stuck in poverty while few people will benefit from it.

The only thing you're going to do by making it even harder on the poor is increasing desperation, and in turn increasing crime and all sorts of nasty stuff. If you want to maintain a position of power you need to keep the people getting you there satisfied.

nope
ones gain is not another's loss. it is not a zero sum game.
removing the ability to get rich is not being "fair" to the poor

[Farbin Kaiber]

Buy your patch of land near a small town in an agricultural area and learn a meaningful and useful trade, because when the economy finishes blowing up, the only people who will get through will be the ones that can actually do something useful with their hands and brains. We may have to eat all those stockbrokers and bank CEOs......;)

Sounds like a wonderful idea, can you tell me more? Maybe some ideas and suggestions on how to go about this?



f5...f5...f5...

[mar1t1me]

Sounds like a wonderful idea, can you tell me more? Maybe some ideas and suggestions on how to go about this?



f5...f5...f5...

hahaha......smart man.

[Raxe]

nope
ones gain is not another's loss. it is not a zero sum game.
removing the ability to get rich is not being "fair" to the poor

It is basically a zero sum game, as "rich" is relative to the average. You can't all be rich.

[ck_taft325is]

nope
ones gain is not another's loss. it is not a zero sum game.
removing the ability to get rich is not being "fair" to the poor

This I also agree with ;)

[DaveSmed]

Outsourcing sure hasn't helped. And this goes hand in hand with lobbying and both parties catering to the rich.
The rich have become a lot like the lowest 40% who leach off the system...they have gotten used to being fed by politicians.
I have no problem with someone being absurdly rich, as long as they made the money honestly. Honesty in that regard has become more and more gray. And so has greed.

I know we don't see eye to eye on a few things, but I absolutely %100 agree with you here.

Being rich isn't the problem. Taxing the living shit out of them simply because they are rich isn't right either.

The problem is, one can "earn" that money by offshoring work, selling off assets, gambling pensions, and various other things that completely ruin a company and its workers. Do this, and when the unsustainability becomes apparent and the shit hits the fan, pull the golden parachute and wave to the other %90 of us assholes. Good job dickhead, you sure "earned" it.

[ck_taft325is]

I know we don't see eye to eye on a few things, but I absolutely %100 agree with you here.

Being rich isn't the problem. Taxing the living shit out of them simply because they are rich isn't right either.

The problem is, one can "earn" that money by offshoring work, selling off assets, gambling pensions, and various other things that completely ruin a company and its workers. Do this, and when the unsustainability becomes apparent and the shit hits the fan, pull the golden parachute and wave to the other %90 of us assholes. Good job dickhead, you sure "earned" it.

This right here is my overall point. The problem is both sides. Or, "people" and "greed".

[scabzzzz]

Outsourcing sure hasn't helped. And this goes hand in hand with lobbying and both parties catering to the rich.
The rich have become a lot like the lowest 40% who leach off the system...they have gotten used to being fed by politicians.
I have no problem with someone being absurdly rich, as long as they made the money honestly. Honesty in that regard has become more and more gray. And so has greed.

Not sure I've ever seen you post something worth reading before, but I think now is that time!