Sales of the GM Volt.

[Ryan Stewart]

L
A good set of batts will last an easy 10 years with little/no memory effects. I've got a cellphone and a laptop here that are 6-7 years in and hold a charge just like day 1.

This is a lie. Just stating, there are no metallic batteries that could even come close to retention they had when produced.

As for Robs statement about resale, the used hybrids have gone down faster than their standard gas counterparts because of concerns on the battery packs. Sure you could make the statement that batteries could get 10x cheaper in 5 years but that didnt happen in the last 5 years so now a used Honda Civic Hybrid is only worth 10 because of fear of soon to be out of warranty batteries.

[joshh]

Hybrids in general are just shit period.
They're half assed technology. They're transition cars. And the people that are buying them are paying for newer technology to come in (over paying). So I thank all you green idiots for paying for shit technology so Capitalism can reign and new technology can keep being innovative.

[rwh11385]

Hybrids in general are just shit period.
They're half assed technology. They're transition cars. And the people that are buying them are paying for newer technology to come in (over paying). So I thank all you green idiots for paying for shit technology so Capitalism can reign and new technology can keep being innovative.

Why are they "just shit period"? Granted you are the village idiot ranter, but even the first gen insight had cool thoughts and features and technology better than previous automobiles that made their way into mainstream vehicles (start-stop, etc.) You can't get to future in one leap and each step is better along the way. New technology cannot become innovative if the transition evolutions are not adopted.

The traditional Prius, no matter the popularity among the "Green" folks isn't the future, and even in the plug-in probably won't be the cure-all. Extended-range EV like the plug-in Prius and Volt will certainly increase and help a lot, and battery tech will improve and more charging stations, but what really to be excited about is flywheel accumulators and ultra-capacitors. No really weight penalty and functionality that adds to the enthusiast, not taking away.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/video/lap-of-estoril-in-the-porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2.0

Watch this "shit hybrid" and tell me you don't want it

[priapism]

This is a lie. Just stating, there are no metallic batteries that could even come close to retention they had when produced.

As for Robs statement about resale, the used hybrids have gone down faster than their standard gas counterparts because of concerns on the battery packs. Sure you could make the statement that batteries could get 10x cheaper in 5 years but that didnt happen in the last 5 years so now a used Honda Civic Hybrid is only worth 10 because of fear of soon to be out of warranty batteries.

Original model Priuses are still on the road, even ones that work as cabs, and their batteries are showing very little reduced capacity. Remember, they came out in Japan in 1997, so we've got 14 years of data.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

...Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability.

For those of us who have cell phones and other devices with NiMH batteries, that claim may sound unrealistic. Over time, the battery's charge longevity seems to wane, resulting in shorter and shorter usage between charges. Eventually, the battery becomes worthless and we buy a replacement.

But in the case of most electronic devices, the batteries tend to get fully charged, then nearly fully discharged before being charged again. For the power pack in the Prius, at least, Toyota says this would greatly shorten the life span of the battery.



... To get maximum life out of the Prius battery pack, the car's computer brain does not allow the battery to fully charge or discharge. Toyota says that for the best service life, the Prius battery likes to be kept at about a 60 percent charge. In normal operation, the system usually lets the charge level vary only 10-15 percentage points. Therefore, the battery is rarely more than 75 percent charged, or less than 45 percent charged.

If you're familiar with the Prius, you know there's a battery-charge indicator on the instrument panel. Toyota says this isn't the charge level per se, but rather a state-of-charge window. The top of the window represents about a 75 percent charge, the bottom about 45 percent charge.

According to Toyota, the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time, and it has been tested to 180,000 miles. Supporting this are first- and second-generation Prius taxis in Canada that have reportedly traveled more than 200,000 miles without suffering any battery problems.

And as for the resale comment, the Prius is one of best resale cars on the market. People clearly don't have the fears you say they do.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.kelly_bluebook/8.html

It certainly isn't "half-assed" technology. Show me another car that can re-harvest energy out of waste heat.

[u3b3rg33k]

It would only be waste heat after the energy is consumed by the brakes, not before.

I have seen some semi truck engines that take actual waste energy in the exhaust (post turbo) and re-introduce it to the driveline - they get a "free" 10% back.

[joshh]

Why are they "just shit period"? Granted you are the village idiot ranter, but even the first gen insight had cool thoughts and features and technology better than previous automobiles that made their way into mainstream vehicles (start-stop, etc.) You can't get to future in one leap and each step is better along the way. New technology cannot become innovative if the transition evolutions are not adopted.

The traditional Prius, no matter the popularity among the "Green" folks isn't the future, and even in the plug-in probably won't be the cure-all. Extended-range EV like the plug-in Prius and Volt will certainly increase and help a lot, and battery tech will improve and more charging stations, but what really to be excited about is flywheel accumulators and ultra-capacitors. No really weight penalty and functionality that adds to the enthusiast, not taking away.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/video/lap-of-estoril-in-the-porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2.0

Watch this "shit hybrid" and tell me you don't want it

That piece is all for PR.
Porsche never needed a hybrid to make insanely fast cars. That car is no faster than a normal race prepped Porsche.

The Prius is a good car for saving gas and taking forever to get to freeway speeds while making others wait. And arguably making things unsafe. You're still over paying for the car which makes the gas savings null and void. They still use gas as well.

Hybrids are a stepping stone to way better technology. I'm just not willing to pay them more for their product so they can come up with better technology. People don't save any money buying hybrids, they just think they do.

[u3b3rg33k]

Found that thing I was talking about:

[Fusion]

A good set of batts will last an easy 10 years with little/no memory effects. I've got a cellphone and a laptop here that are 6-7 years in and hold a charge just like day 1.

I would love to see that laptop.
No laptop battery will last 6 years if its used daily, even if you take care of the cycles.
I'm on a 5yo Thinkpad R60, my 2nd OEM battery just died a couple weeks ago, both lasting about 2.5 years. Both had very little memory effect, and went from charging to 100% to only 4% over night. Not even enough power to hold sleep mode. I used to refurbish Thinkpads and never have I seen a used battery older than 3 years hold over half an hour of power.
Just look at the price of the higher OEM capacity batts, they cost almost as much as a nice used R/T60.

The industry will never allow major price drops. As is the case with laptop batteries. They'll just sell higher capacity batts for the same price.
The friend of mine that has the EV Pug bought it with dead batteries (20% max charge after 10 years iirc) and the new ones cost him $10K. They do allow a 20% higher charge milage than the OEMs though. If you do the math, he would have to drive about 100000kms just to get an equal price per km as a diesel car, not counting in the el. charge price. That would mean he'd have to drive the available 100km charge almost every day for three years. Problem is, he expects the batteries to last no longer than those 100000kms. It's his hobby though, so he doesn't really care about the "real world application".

There is curently no way to justify the price of EV/hybrid cars.
The average mpg of 1300 Priuses in Germany with at least 3000kms of consumption records is 45mpg. Which is laughable because the MPG of 2400 VW Golf diesels manf. from 2000 is about the same. Except the Golf costs a little over half the Prius price (curent new car price comparison).
And as you may know, those TDi's can swallow a shitload of miles during their lifespan. The highest milage used Prius I could find is 145K miles, but numerous Golf TDi's from 2000 up with twice that figure.

Over here, if you want low price per mile, you either go with low consumption diesels or 4 banger LPG conversions, the ppm being about the same. An LPG conversion costs about $1K, which is usually the gas/diesel used car price difference, so the decision comes down to which engine you prefer.

Oh and if you're a tree hugger, the LPG conversion lowers emissions a lot, without loss of power, sometimes they reek weird though.

[Wiglaf]

Sorry about your thinkpad bro.

Ok so chemically scientifically speaking they do settle in a little, but to say lithium has no memory compared to other battery types is not exaggerating things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

2000~7000 charge cycles is a hell of a wild range though. 7k, if we max the range every day 365 days per year, is over 19 years. 2k is a little over 5 years. Assuming a remotely bell shaped average you'd be getting at least 12 years out of it. Driving 45 miles per day would put you at 200k miles right there.

I know we're all used to batteries just outright sucking and maybe we will have to see it to beleive it but really this seems like they are getting reasonable.

And yeah 90% of the hybrids out there are a fucking joke, joshh is right about that.

[Fusion]

He bought LFP for the Pug. I was told today that he's building an LFP pack for his diesel Passat to replace the regular car battery. For example the independant heater he has can often drain the battery and the LFP pack should be fully recharged by the alterator within a 10 minute drive after being jump started.
Interesting stuff, but not even that guy believes in more than 10 years.
Also don't fotget about temperature stress in outdoor conditions. Not sure about the direct effect on LFP though.

[Vedubin01]

2nd Chevy Volt catches fire due to crash and batteries

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/25/2nd-electric-car-battery-fire-involving-chevy-volt/?ap

WASHINGTON — Federal officials say they are investigating the safety of lithium-ion battery in General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Volt after a second battery fire following crash-testing of the electric car.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday that three Volt battery packs were crash-tested last week. In one instance, the battery caught fire afterward, and in another the battery emitted smoke and sparks.
Last May, a fire erupted in the battery of a Chevy Volt that had been damaged during a government crash test three weeks earlier. Last week's tests were an attempt to replicate the May fire.
NHTSA has opened a formal safety defect investigation of the batteries.
General Motors officials said previously that government officials didn't follow the carmaker's protocols for storing post-crash batteries.
The Associated Press

[Wiglaf]

uh, that's the same story we talked about last page. The fire didn't even start anywhere near the car.

[u3b3rg33k]

The Volt also uses a 1.4l gas engine. Factor in the cost of rebuild after 200k miles on that as well right?

Another thought on that gas engine. it probably ONLY runs at it's most efficient RPM/BSFC/HP, or a narrow range therein (since it can couple to the wheels at highways speeds). That could give it a much longer theoretical lifespan compared to a user controllable engine.

[joshh]

uh, that's the same story we talked about last page. The fire didn't even start anywhere near the car.

That link has nothing to do with the car fire in the garage.

[tjts1]

This is a lie. Just stating, there are no metallic batteries that could even come close to retention they had when produced.

As for Robs statement about resale, the used hybrids have gone down faster than their standard gas counterparts because of concerns on the battery packs. Sure you could make the statement that batteries could get 10x cheaper in 5 years but that didnt happen in the last 5 years so now a used Honda Civic Hybrid is only worth 10 because of fear of soon to be out of warranty batteries.

Say what?

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=prius&srchType=T&minAsk=&maxAsk=