Sales of the GM Volt.

[Fusion]

rwh: Yes, and since May 2011 a lot of changes have happened. Noone talked about CNG, and while all the Volt masturbation was going on, VW and others have made major changes to the cars to prolong range, added more models, and gas supply companies have caught on and started building tons of stations. Prices of home filling stations are also dropping. Also gasoline and diesel prices have gone up, making CNG a much cheaper alternative.

Sleeve: The government can in theory tax electric cars but in both cases they won't do it because it would be against the worldwide eco shananigans.
CNG prices are very stable and there are more and more sources. CNG isn't subsidized, nor the cars, but for example you don't pay the road tax that applies to regular fuels.

1m³ = 35.3146670ft³
1m³ = about 90 cents
or about $1.10 per kg = 1l gasoline which curently costs about $1.8/l

http://www.greencar.com/articles/honda-civic-natural-gas-2012-green-car-year.php

I'm not backing this up as something I would necessarily choose, but anyone can easily come to a conclusion that this is a much more logical and economical option vs. an overpriced Volt.

[mrsleeve]

^

Yeah please read my edit to that post. I miss read the chart when I put that together.

Here in the US if your running a fuel you can get with no taxes on it on the road your supposed to keep track of your usage and pay the road use taxes in the amounts for its most similar fuel. Running fryer grease or home brew Bio diesel, yeah your supposed to keep a log and pay that shit in. Dont have it and get your tank dipped, you paying just like if you have red dyed off road/farm diesel in there.

I know its using a carrot to try and get as many people on it as they can, but you guys heat in the winter with N/G too what happens when demand goes way up in winter, you will be paying though the nose to keep your house warm and drive to work. yes there is lots of N/G around but there are many govts around the world (euro ones) wanting to ban the process that lets you go get it, all though Poland I think is going to frack one of its new fields to see how it works out soon.

[Fusion]

I doubt it, LPG has had very small taxation on it for decades and hasn't gone up with demand.
Yes, in both cases you're pushed into a corner with tax rise on your mind, but if you get through the "price compensation year" it doesn't really matter cuz like I said, you can go back to full gasoline and not have to worry about your batteries dying and the government not subsidizing GM's battery manf. in a decade. Not that it makes any difference since your tax dollar has already gone down the Volt drain.

[mrsleeve]

You are aware that LPG and CNG are 2 different things right.

[Fusion]

70% of LPG here comes from NG.
Taxes are the same for both in most countries.

[rwh11385]

rwh: Yes, and since May 2011 a lot of changes have happened. Noone talked about CNG, and while all the Volt masturbation was going on, VW and others have made major changes to the cars to prolong range, added more models, and gas supply companies have caught on and started building tons of stations. Prices of home filling stations are also dropping. Also gasoline and diesel prices have gone up, making CNG a much cheaper alternative.

Wow, and just think if your mind changed from biased and close-minded to positive about CNG in 15 months... what might happen when battery prices continue to drop and the energy storage density improves!

Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge a technology, or just stop being a general douchebag.

Yeah, I've talked about CNG - although more constant support of biogas among other venues. But in the United States, Natural Gas is a huge domestic resource and crazy that we've not tapped it as much as we could have. But simply we were spoiled by cheap gas for so many years, adoption of different technology didn't seem worthwhile until recently. (and still some people are slow to consider anything new...)

I'm not backing this up as something I would necessarily choose, but anyone can easily come to a conclusion that this is a much more logical and economical option vs. an overpriced Volt.

Since you're also the person who said that the entire alternative was stupid and a dead end a year ago, probably not very worthwhile for anyone to listen to your opinion on it...

But economics of plug-in's will change dramatically as soon as Envia's batteries are in Volts, as well as more charging stations around cities. Logic is really based on driver's commute and situation, but there's a difference between overall economics and capital investment. Stuff like a solar panel and a Volt might be a larger initial capital investment but much lower recurring costs / operating expenses. It's like renting vs. buying a house - some people think it is logical and economical to spend to save in the long run, and some just spend a greater amount and not worry about payback.

I'd like to see more compatible cars in the US and more CNG fill stations. I do think it's a viable alternative, especially given the plentiful ways it can be produced by renewable sources. Although, the limitations previously was lack of economics - because gas was so cheap. (and supply of natural gas wasn't what it was now back a decade ago either).

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9010us2m.htm

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=6630

Bi-fuel would help avoid heating month price fluctuation issues. But still a point of concern for all-CNG vehicles. And countries will eventually tax everything, it's the way of life. Sleeve knows what he is talking about, even if he perhaps misread the units on a chart.

[Fusion]

I've already stated that the Volt would be a fine option if the price was 10-20% higher than an equivalent gasoline engined car. That will never happen and battery prices will never drop rapidly.
At the time I wrote the dead end comment, I was absolutely right. The major thing that happened between then and now is that the EU has agreed to invest in stations. Government money. But not in the cars or their tech.

The only way to rapidly cut battery and thus Volt prices would be more goverment intervention. That can of course happen and maybe in five years you can quote that above statement in red, and call me a general douchebag again. But if the government drops more coin into a non-profit car, it will be a douchey reason to call me a douchbag.

[rwh11385]

I've already stated that the Volt would be a fine option if the price was 10-20% higher than an equivalent gasoline engined car. That will never happen and battery prices will never drop rapidly.
At the time I wrote the dead end comment, I was absolutely right. The major thing that happened between then and now is that the EU has agreed to invest in stations. Government money. But not in the cars or their tech.

The only way to rapidly cut battery and thus Volt prices would be more goverment intervention. That can of course happen and maybe in five years you can quote that above statement in red, and call me a general douchebag again. But if the government drops more coin into a non-profit car, it will be a douchey reason to call me a douchbag.

I'm so glad someone so uninformed about an industry or technologies is so confident in his predictions. It gives me humor.

Equally encouraging is that Envia says the cost for its new cells could be as low as $125 per kwh, which again, compares favorably to present li-ion batteries such as those in the Nissan Leaf priced at around $375 per kwh and the Chevy Volt at around $500-$600 per kwh.

Let's say the Volt battery pack costs $10,000.
If they keep the same kwh, cost would be $2083-$2500.

What % of a $20K compact car is just over $2000? Well, gosh, I'd say that is roughly 10%.

Taking into the consideration that they have most of the pioneering work of development, engineering, and testing under their belt... and that they offer mild hybrids at a no-cost option... you might be contradicting yourself again as soon as Envia's batteries are integrated into the Volt.

And although Envia was backed by an APRA-e grant, it's largely funded by private venture capital.

[Fusion]

Btw: you may have skipped over that Governement Fleets site. It is hard to find any information on government Volt purchases. Want to guess why?

What I find interesting though is this

The EV charging station is equipped with five 240V charge outlets for use by County employees and residents free of charge. The County received the charging station through a grant received by BEVI from the Maryland Energy Administration's Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program, the release stated.

The City of Bellevue has added three Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric vehicles to its fleet using grant funds from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. According to the City, purchasing the vehicles is part of its Environmental Stewardship Initiative (ESI), and Bellevue currently operates more than 120 hybrid vehicles in its fleet. The hybrids make up more than half of the passenger vehicles in the City’s fleet (230 passenger vehicles).

n 2012, the City plans to install five electric vehicle charging stations around the City. Manassas received a federal grant through the U.S. Department of Energy (via the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act).

While each vehicle costs $47,000, the County will offset that price with a $4,500 credit per car through the state’s EV-Ready rebate program. The cost of each vehicle also includes a bumper-to-bumper warranty for seven years.

President Barack Obama has set a target of putting one million plug-in hybrids on U.S roads by 2015. In announcing a new plan for offshore drilling today, Obama also said the government would double its purchases of hybrid vehicles to 5,000.

"We're going to lead by example and practice what we preach: cutting waste, saving energy, and reducing our reliance on foreign oil," Obama said, the Free Press reported.

So the goverment pays some 50bil to bailout GM, then buys cars that were made using its money, then provides grants to purchase Volts and build stations and photovoltaic arrays, countys offset the Volt price with a state rebate program.
All of that is tax payer money.

rwh: Care to sum up all that investment and count the "huge savings" the Volt is supposed to offer?

I'll tell you why those batteries will never drop in price and never be available. Because when this goverment ponzi scheme comes to light and the losses are finally tallied up, Volt production will come to a halt, and current owners will have a worthless RC toy.

[rwh11385]

Btw: you may have skipped over that Governement Fleets site. It is hard to find any information on government Volt purchases. Want to guess why?

What I find interesting though is this

So the goverment pays some 50bil to bailout GM, then buys cars that were made using its money, then provides grants to purchase Volts and build stations and photovoltaic arrays, countys offset the Volt price with a state rebate program.
All of that is tax payer money.

rwh: Care to sum up all that investment and count the "huge savings" the Volt is supposed to offer?

I saw it, but thought it was for vedubin to use to try to prove his point. But if you are passionate about it, you go right ahead and add up 3 Volts here and 5 Volts there.

Probably because state, county, and municipal governments don't communicate well and the information is very disconnected?

And actually, the origins of the grant for hybrids and EVs were made before the Volt was even conceptualized. GM just took advantage of the opportunity instead of just leaving Toyota to scoop up that business.

And given that all the investment in EV infrastructure isn't limited to just the Volt, why would it make any sense at all to only compare that to the Volt? Do you just not have logic? Or just that desperate? BMW's new electric scooter will charge at the same posts. Should we add up all the stations and weigh them against it as well? Leafs? Prius plug-ins? Would it be better to have the grants go towards Leafs? Or Emerg-E's?

As more PHEVs come out, which will be a good number as most automakers are working on one, then there will be greater options, but being the first of its kind puts a target on its back - especially by Green-haters and other close-minded people. But that doesn't mean piling all EV infrastructure investments against a single car is logical or intelligent at all.

[rwh11385]

I'll tell you why those batteries will never drop in price and never be available. Because when this goverment ponzi scheme comes to light and the losses are finally tallied up, Volt production will come to a halt, and current owners will have a worthless RC toy.

Again, even if the Volt didn't exist at all... why would you say that the batteries will never be available? Is the Volt the only EV in the world?

Why would someone's car magically become a worthless RC toy? Does it not function on its own? Did my Pontiac magically no longer run when the brand no longer existed?

[Vedubin01]

Why would someone's car magically become a worthless RC toy? Does it not function on its own? Did my Pontiac magically no longer run when the brand no longer existed?

Wow, what a comparison. When did "worthless" and "no longer run" become the same?




In GM’s 2012 sales projections for the Volt, the company was initially claiming they would deliver 60,000 cars. That number has been dropped down to 45,000. Those downsized, but still aggressive, projections will be helped by General Electric’s decision to order 12,000 Volts and some other hybrid for its company fleet.
GE, a company headed by Obama Jobs Czar Jeffry Immelt, is also well known for its questionable federal income tax rate in 2010. And now GE is reportedly “nudging” a substantial number of employees to drive the Chevy Volt by replacing the company cars in its fleet with the “green” cars. The company is also paying for the installation of charging stations at the homes of those employees who will be driving the car and is even paying for the electricity used to charge them.


If you choose not to drive a Volt from the company’s fleet, and instead want to drive your own, GE is no longer going to reimburse your travel costs.




Nice way of the Government using its leverage to push more volts!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ge-nudges-employees-towards-using-chevy-volts/

[rwh11385]

Wow, what a comparison. When did "worthless" and "no longer run" become the same?




In GM’s 2012 sales projections for the Volt, the company was initially claiming they would deliver 60,000 cars. That number has been dropped down to 45,000. Those downsized, but still aggressive, projections will be helped by General Electric’s decision to order 12,000 Volts and some other hybrid for its company fleet.
GE, a company headed by Obama Jobs Czar Jeffry Immelt, is also well known for its questionable federal income tax rate in 2010. And now GE is reportedly “nudging” a substantial number of employees to drive the Chevy Volt by replacing the company cars in its fleet with the “green” cars. The company is also paying for the installation of charging stations at the homes of those employees who will be driving the car and is even paying for the electricity used to charge them.


If you choose not to drive a Volt from the company’s fleet, and instead want to drive your own, GE is no longer going to reimburse your travel costs.




Nice way of the Government using its leverage to push more volts!


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ge-n...g-chevy-volts/

Well, how else would a car become worthless?

So wait, are you arguing that GE is now the government?

[Vedubin01]

Well, how else would a car become worthless?

So wait, are you arguing that GE is now the government?

Nothing is "worthless" not even the RC car. But it falls to the ranks of Saturn and other failed auto lines. In a few years when you cant purchase parts for your now bankrupt Pontiac, it will become almost worthless and worth more in parts or scrap.


And if you can not see the connection between GE and the Gov you are the definition of the word Gullible! GE has been doing the dirty work (in the private sector) for the GOV and the GOV rewards heavily for its work!

Such as no bid contracts, tax breaks, and incentives

Conflict of interests at its best!

[Fusion]

Cool, rwh filmed herself for us



What makes you such an Obamamobile hugger? Do you have failed GM stock and hope your little forum defense will boost stock value?