Koran burnings in Florida

[CorvallisBMW]

I in no sense condone any of the actions of both parties. However, going on a murderous rampage b/c someone burned your book of faith is absurd.

As far as the whole screaming "fire" in a crowded movie theater analogy, I don't think its applicable to this situation. A little excerpt from CorvallisBMW's post basically affirms that.

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."

The key terms to that are "clear and present danger." If we were to say that speaking against Islam, lets say in the form of a book burning, is to create a "clear and present danger," then well what are we saying about the Islamic community as a whole?

I agree to an extent, but remember that there are certain groups within the middle east that truly are powder kegs and can be considered a clear & present danger. Remember the Danish cartoonist who was killed after drawing a picture of Muhammad? The world has known for several years that some people will react with extreme violence to what they see as blasphemy. Pastor Jones got hundreds of death threats months ago when he planned on having his 'Koran burning day' and there were violent riots throughout the middle east in reaction to the very proposal of it.

To suggest that there was not a clear and present danger of a violent and deadly reaction(s) is severely shortsighted, the pastor himself was a direct recipient of death threats; he knew what was likely to happen.

If a kid throws rocks at a hornet's nest, and those hornets go on to sting a bunch of people walking by and some of them die from anaphylactic shock, you're damn right the kid is partly responsible. The hornets are mindless drones who are following the instincts they've known since birth, but are they that much unlike those who have been brainwashed since childhood to believe that this kind of violence is the 'correct' response? Again, responsibility lies with both parties; the instigator and the perpetrator.

[tjts1]

religion. I lol'd.

+1

[z31maniac]

I agree to an extent, but remember that there are certain groups within the middle east that truly are powder kegs and can be considered a clear & present danger. Remember the Danish cartoonist who was killed after drawing a picture of Muhammad? The world has known for several years that some people will react with extreme violence to what they see as blasphemy. Pastor Jones got hundreds of death threats months ago when he planned on having his 'Koran burning day' and there were violent riots throughout the middle east in reaction to the very proposal of it.

To suggest that there was not a clear and present danger of a violent and deadly reaction(s) is severely shortsighted, the pastor himself was a direct recipient of death threats; he knew what was likely to happen.

If a kid throws rocks at a hornet's nest, and those hornets go on to sting a bunch of people walking by and some of them die from anaphylactic shock, you're damn right the kid is partly responsible. The hornets are mindless drones who are following the instincts they've known since birth, but are they that much unlike those who have been brainwashed since childhood to believe that this kind of violence is the 'correct' response? Again, responsibility lies with both parties; the instigator and the perpetrator.

If the people who reacted are literally THOUSANDS of miles away, how does that represent "clear and PRESENT danger?"

[CorvallisBMW]

If the people who reacted are literally THOUSANDS of miles away, how does that represent "clear and PRESENT danger?"

B/C our soldiers/civilians contractors/staff/etc aren't thousands of miles away :)

[dirtysix]

Are you guys aware of the complete ignorance of large parts of the Afgan people?
Check out some of the rubbish in their forums like this one.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/

You're talking about a loosely associated group of people who have not left the dark ages.
The expectation of reasonable behaviour is fantasy.

[Bill 84 318i]

Are you guys aware of the complete ignorance of large parts of the Afgan people?
Check out some of the rubbish in their forums like this one.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/

You're talking about a loosely associated group of people who have not left the dark ages.
The expectation of reasonable behaviour is fantasy.

Didn't check the link, but I hardly think it's reasonable on your part to base your view of a nation and its people on some internet forum.

[dirtysix]

Didn't check the link, but I hardly think it's reasonable on your part to base your view of a nation and its people on some internet forum.

You have a fair point.
But you cant tell me that you consider Afganistan as an intelligent, open and educated society.?

[Farbin Kaiber]

^ Someone is gonna be here to defend them in a moment, and it's not me.

[Bill 84 318i]

You have a fair point.
But you cant tell me that you consider Afganistan as an intelligent, open and educated society.?

Hell, I don't think that America meets most of that criteria :-P. And the short answer to your question is no...but it's hardly related to your original statement.

I've met and spent a lot of time with Afghans, and Americans that have spent time in or lived there (and probably still would, if it was like it was 30 years ago) - they're some of my favorite people to hang out with. Some were born there, some left, some stayed, and some went back. Some still split time there. They're some of the most thoughtful, intelligent people I've ever met - with some of the most well established political opinions and world views I've enjoyed listening to, especially when compared with most people I know.

And these are people from a country and area that's been at war for decades. They've seen their family killed with their own eyes, been put in jail, been forced to fight, and still deal with more corruption, oppression, and war than I hope any of us ever know. I can't help but admire them.

Is it and are they perfect? Far from it. But the people of Afghanistan simply try to live their lives as best as they can, day to day, just like us.

The exceptions are the ones in the news - and unfortunately in a lot of places, in power.

[dirtysix]

Hell, I don't think that America meets most of that criteria :-P. And the short answer to your question is no...but it's hardly related to your original statement.

I've met and spent a lot of time with Afghans, and Americans that have spent time in or lived there (and probably still would, if it was like it was 30 years ago) - they're some of my favorite people to hang out with. Some were born there, some left, some stayed, and some went back. Some still split time there. They're some of the most thoughtful, intelligent people I've ever met - with some of the most well established political opinions and world views I've enjoyed listening to, especially when compared with most people I know.

And these are people from a country and area that's been at war for decades. They've seen their family killed with their own eyes, been put in jail, been forced to fight, and still deal with more corruption, oppression, and war than I hope any of us ever know. I can't help but admire them.

Is it and are they perfect? Far from it. But the people of Afghanistan simply try to live their lives as best as they can, day to day, just like us.

The exceptions are the ones in the news - and unfortunately in a lot of places, in power.

Well you seem to have a deeper understanding than I, so I'll concede.

[trent]

I am not happy with anybody killing each other, but please. How many times a day does a bible get burned or the American flag, or any other country flag for that matter. I hope this wakes up some people to show how extremist some of these Muslims are.

[Bill 84 318i]

Well you seem to have a deeper understanding than I, so I'll concede.

I don't necessarily have a deep understanding, just some personal experience. The stories some of these people have are just incredible.

The country certainly has a ton of issues, both socioeconomic and religious in nature...but blanket statements like that just irk me. It's ethnocentric and disrespectful - not something I expected from you, given other posts of yours.

I am not happy with anybody killing each other, but please. How many times a day does a bible get burned or the American flag, or any other country flag for that matter. I hope this wakes up some people to show how extremist some of these Muslims are.

Do you really think Muslim extremism doesn't get enough attention?

[sonnyqm3]

I dont agree with what the pastor no do I agree with what the crowd in Afghanistan did. But here is an interesting article from pashtunforums.com.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/bowl-patience-afghan-muslim-people-being-full-brim-15937/

The crime of burning a copy of the Glorious Quran by an American pastor and the silence of America and the United Nations vis-à-vis this crime proves that the pastor of Florida is not alone in this despicable act but all of them are behind this transgression. They are accomplices in the conspiracy of desecration of a Book that 1.5 billions Muslims of the world believe in.
Thousands of American troops have invaded our soil on the bidding of the Church and priests with a task for every soldier to commit desecration of the Glorious Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and other sacred tenets of Islam. These crimes led to circumstances that filled the bowls of patience of the Afghan Muslim people to the brim, compelling them to take to the streets in defense of their religious tenets. They wanted to prove that, at least, they are one voice against the opponents of Islam and Muslims and against the American troops stationed in the country and the crimes of Terry Jones, the pastor of the State of Florida who burnt tens of copies of the Holy Quran, ostensibly in reaction to the 9/11 Event. The Americans have already invaded Afghanistan under the same pretext and shed blood of nearly two hundred thousands innocent Afghans, wrongfully claiming that the Afghans and their soil were involved in the Event.
As the Afghans held demonstrations in defense and protection of their religious values in every part of the country and the foreign and local troops and agents of the American pastors killed or injured nearly two hundred people in Kandahar province, the American rulers and the Security Council UNO, instead of condemning this great human tragedy and soul losses, ironically remained silent. Contrarily, the White House and the Security Council expressed sorrow and concern over the incident in Mazar-i-Sharif where a few foreign nationals had been injured during stone-throwing by the demonstrators at the UNAMA office.
We would like to make it clear to the Security Council and to the White House that had you not overlooked the event of the desecration and burning of the Holy Quran and condemned the crime of the pastor at the time in strong terms and respected the feelings of the 1.5 billions Muslims, the attack on UNAMA office in Mazari Sharif would not have happened, nor the brave citizens of Kandahar would have come forward to come to the street and lose their lives.
To end, we emphasize if the double standard policy of the Security Council and their indifference and hostility as regards the Islamic sacrosanct continue unabatedly; if they continue the military invasions of the Islamic countries and lands; if they violate the Islamic values and continue to intentionally commit blasphemy against the Holy prophet and the Divine Book, then the Muslims, particularly, the Afghans would have to resort to some other options for the defense of their religious sanctity and national pride.
Then, the responsibility of any consequences will solely rest with those who stand now shoulder to shoulder with the pastors; support them and interpret the Charter of the United Nations and other laws in a way to tilt to their favor.

[sonnyqm3]

Hell, I don't think that America meets most of that criteria :-P. And the short answer to your question is no...but it's hardly related to your original statement.

I've met and spent a lot of time with Afghans, and Americans that have spent time in or lived there (and probably still would, if it was like it was 30 years ago) - they're some of my favorite people to hang out with. Some were born there, some left, some stayed, and some went back. Some still split time there. They're some of the most thoughtful, intelligent people I've ever met - with some of the most well established political opinions and world views I've enjoyed listening to, especially when compared with most people I know.

And these are people from a country and area that's been at war for decades. They've seen their family killed with their own eyes, been put in jail, been forced to fight, and still deal with more corruption, oppression, and war than I hope any of us ever know. I can't help but admire them.

Is it and are they perfect? Far from it. But the people of Afghanistan simply try to live their lives as best as they can, day to day, just like us.

The exceptions are the ones in the news - and unfortunately in a lot of places, in power.

finally someone here who is not ignorant. wish more people were like you..

[Bill 84 318i]

I dont agree with what the pastor no do I agree with what the crowd in Afghanistan did. But here is an interesting article from pashtunforums.com.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/bowl-patience-afghan-muslim-people-being-full-brim-15937/

The crime of burning a copy of the Glorious Quran by an American pastor and the silence of America and the United Nations vis-à-vis this crime proves that the pastor of Florida is not alone in this despicable act but all of them are behind this transgression. They are accomplices in the conspiracy of desecration of a Book that 1.5 billions Muslims of the world believe in.
Thousands of American troops have invaded our soil on the bidding of the Church and priests with a task for every soldier to commit desecration of the Glorious Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and other sacred tenets of Islam. These crimes led to circumstances that filled the bowls of patience of the Afghan Muslim people to the brim, compelling them to take to the streets in defense of their religious tenets. They wanted to prove that, at least, they are one voice against the opponents of Islam and Muslims and against the American troops stationed in the country and the crimes of Terry Jones, the pastor of the State of Florida who burnt tens of copies of the Holy Quran, ostensibly in reaction to the 9/11 Event. The Americans have already invaded Afghanistan under the same pretext and shed blood of nearly two hundred thousands innocent Afghans, wrongfully claiming that the Afghans and their soil were involved in the Event.
As the Afghans held demonstrations in defense and protection of their religious values in every part of the country and the foreign and local troops and agents of the American pastors killed or injured nearly two hundred people in Kandahar province, the American rulers and the Security Council UNO, instead of condemning this great human tragedy and soul losses, ironically remained silent. Contrarily, the White House and the Security Council expressed sorrow and concern over the incident in Mazar-i-Sharif where a few foreign nationals had been injured during stone-throwing by the demonstrators at the UNAMA office.
We would like to make it clear to the Security Council and to the White House that had you not overlooked the event of the desecration and burning of the Holy Quran and condemned the crime of the pastor at the time in strong terms and respected the feelings of the 1.5 billions Muslims, the attack on UNAMA office in Mazari Sharif would not have happened, nor the brave citizens of Kandahar would have come forward to come to the street and lose their lives.
To end, we emphasize if the double standard policy of the Security Council and their indifference and hostility as regards the Islamic sacrosanct continue unabatedly; if they continue the military invasions of the Islamic countries and lands; if they violate the Islamic values and continue to intentionally commit blasphemy against the Holy prophet and the Divine Book, then the Muslims, particularly, the Afghans would have to resort to some other options for the defense of their religious sanctity and national pride.
Then, the responsibility of any consequences will solely rest with those who stand now shoulder to shoulder with the pastors; support them and interpret the Charter of the United Nations and other laws in a way to tilt to their favor.

But, most of the people the author mentions did condemn the act of the Quran burning - both the first time it came up and again this time.

As much as I sympathize with what Afghanistan has been in the middle of for the past few decades, I can't get down with that article. Saying that US presence is there "on the bidding of the Church and priests with a task for every soldier to commit desecration of the Glorious Quran" is just as foolish as saying that 9/11 happened because "they hated our freedom."

Even though the acts of both sides was seeded in something far deeper, both the burning of the Quran and the reaction did nothing to productively further the position of either group.