AAHHHGGGGGGG this ought piss you off

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dont forget the 15-20% less BTU by volume as comapred to 100% Petrol GAS there for shittier mileage.

But YES this is more about the MONEY and the SUBSIDIZATION of something that if there was a demand for it the private markets would be doing it on their own. This is about the GOVt making the choices for you and FORCING this upon us and a the laws of unintended consequences

[z31maniac]

cant wait, i work at a gas station. guess ima need some boost.

edit, sorry i did read it but i dont see whats to bitch about. You guys are lucky to live in the midwest/east coast. Fuel is cheap over there.

I work at a chevron. We went up 6 cents on gas last night and 10cent on diesel tonight. Diesel is at 4.59 a gall. wtf is new taxes gunna do and effect us. We're already being raped on that shit. Its like what i tell ppl. Oh wow your gunna pay 5-10 cents more per gal , how many galls are you gunna buy ? 10-15 at max , that a whole 3 bux more. Big deal. Shit could be worse.

Part of the reason gas is cheap in the OK is because we pump and refine our own. And ready access to crude because of the Cushing exchange.

But that "only 5-10 cents a gallon" is now up something like 75cents a gallon.

On average I use about a tank a week, ~13 gals. So far for a month I'm using about $45/month now. That's not hurting me, but if you're a paycheck-to-paycheck that's already struggling, that shit adds up quick.

[herbivor]

Corn based biofuel is one of the worst ideas we ever had and the fact that we've decided to subsidize it makes you realize just how much control big money has over our government.

[Holland]

Ahhhh so you think the e15 that the EPA wants might kill all the older cars that were not meant to run on it. there by forcing us to buy new cars ????


How tinfoil hatty of you ;)

Well they tried it before, I wouldn't put it past them.

[deutschman]

Yes danny BUT YOU ME AND EVERYONE ELSE THAT PAYS TAXES WILL BE PAYING THE STATIONS TO INSTALL THEM.

ON TOP OF THE 46 CENT A GALLON SUBSIDIES WE PAY NOW. ALL WHILE OUR GOVT IS BROKE AS SHIT AND GOING TO SPEND 165 BILLION more than it takes in this year and is 14 trillion in total DEBT. WE CANT AFFORD THIS for 1 thing. Also if there was sufficient demand for the shit I think the gas stations would be installing them on their own dime, to meet customer demands. (on that note stations that sell and advertise ethanol free fuel are doing very well)

Not to mention that the EAP says newer cars can use e15 safely, what about older ones???

Ummm also Ethanol is going to use as much cor production as Feeding our food supply. and taking up real estate to grow that extra corn for fuel that would other wise be in other necessary crops like Hay (for live stock), cereal grains, and what not. This will push the price up for your staple food items even more than are now.

To bad there is so much money in corn. I really hate the way this country works. We used to have a capitalist economy run by a democracy. Now we have a democracy run by a capitalist economy.

[Wiglaf]

Ethanol is a great fuel.. The lower range should be compensated for in cost, much like the increased potency of diesel is. But if you're going to fight the electrics tooth and nail then you might as well be ready to accept alternative forms of gasoline.
Theoretically (and what I would like to think they are working towards) is creating a huge demand of corn so that we would not have to subsidize farmers any more. At the same time lowering our import needs by at least 15%, that is huge. We're running on a fraction of the farms that we used to have, they can come back.

I don't like to see tax dollars spent towards this though, you'd think the industry itself would be responsible in creating a long-term plan to ensure it's survival. oh, LOL

[joshh]

I'm already enjoying lower fuel mileage from the Ethanol crap. But thankfully there is a station that sells non-ethanol added fuel. Which I've switched to.

[mrsleeve]

Ethanol is a great fuel.. The lower range should be compensated for in cost, much like the increased potency of diesel is. But if you're going to fight the electrics tooth and nail then you might as well be ready to accept alternative forms of gasoline.

NO NO NO its not, its got 15-20% less BUT by volume than GAS and about 30% less BTU by volume then #2 Diesel. It takes 2 1/2 times more input energy from seed to tank as it does and equal amount of petrol from hole to tank to make corn into a viable motor fuel.

Theoretically (and what I would like to think they are working towards) is creating a huge demand of corn so that we would not have to subsidize farmers any more.

NO NO NO NO, the farmers would be just fine as it is now if we took the farm subsidies away now.

What do you think we have in the 1st place with out the trying to make gas outta corn???? Yeah a huge demand for it, the only reason there is a glut in the supply is because the production is you well you know...........................subsidized.

At the same time lowering our import needs by at least 15%, that is huge. We're running on a fraction of the farms that we used to have, they can come back.

NO NO NO NO NO some more. We can Lower our FUCKING IMPORT NEEDS BY OPENING UP OUR OWN VAST UNTOUCHED OIL FIELDS


There is not enough farm ground in the world to grow 15% of our every expanding fuel needs AND OUR FUCKING FOOD SUPPLY let alone good water resources. YOU GROW FUCKING FOOD NOT MOTOR FUEL. Why do you think the price of foods is going way the fuck up in the last 2-3 years. YUP ethanol subsidies, like I said earlier farmers (I know lots of the in both MI and IA) have pulled ground from hay/cereal grains, and live stock production, and put into corn for Ethanol to get the better subsidized price. Cant blame them ONE IOTA because they need to make as much money as they can on that ground.

NO YOU WONT see all the farms come back, not when the land is worth more as develop-able real estate than if you farmed it for 100 years you would never make a real profit or pay the land off your kids might though. Or because you have to have about 3-5 million dollars or get a loan for that to get started anymore, only to actually earn 50k a year. It takes about 1200ac till able to make enough money that you dont have to have a REAL full time job to support the farm. All those little farms you are talking about were little more than subsistence farms. Now most farms are bigger and can susrvive but its still hard to make a go of it. You will not see a great RUSH for people to go back too it. They all want the easy life and make 100k for 40 hours a week and 2 weeks paid vacation. Farming is the just the opposite its bust your ass from 5am till 8-10pm 7 days a week 365 days a year(some times never sleep during planting and harvesting), all for if you are lucky 50k a year after all the expenses (great return on your 5 million dollar investment, and broken body huh???).

The real estate costs alone involved are massive you go out and try and buy a square of decent farm ground and see what that is going to cost you (if you can even find one for sale, thing is that makes good subdivision ground too so the developer will win that fight), then add in about 150k for a tractor you will need a couple, about 65k per implement and you will need at least 3 10-20k for lesser complicated implements and you will need a few of those. a 100k for a used harvester (relatively new) 15-50k for 1 or 2 heads a pop, maintenance and random break downs are costly. Tires can be 3-15k depending on what and how many, oil services are in gallons, FUEL COSTS, Seed, fertilizer, trucks, trailers, repairs, blah blah blah the list is never ending. Your never board on a farm there ALWAYS SOMETHING to do or needing to get done. (I grew up on one)

I have buddy in IA that summer of 08 was burring nearly 600 bucks a day in Diesel fuel on his farm (about 2200 ac a smallish one for North Central IA) YES A DAY thats what his average were for just day to day operations the bulk of course was during planting and harvest where fuel costs were closer to 3k day for about 2 months. I can go on and on and on but I trust you have gotten the point.

I don't like to see tax dollars spent towards this though, you'd think the industry itself would be responsible in creating a long-term plan to ensure it's survival. oh, LOL

Your right its not a long term viable solution, thats why the govt is trying to steer it that way and people are all to happy to take the money and run with it. Its govt intervention in the market place again no more no less and this is one thats doing nothing but costing us all from all sides no matter what you do, eat, buy, or where you live your pocket book is going to get MUCH lighter that it used to be, in many different facets

[Raxe]

Things like this make me glad I live in Alberta.

[Click]

I'd rather have them developing liquid hydrocarbon fuels than electric cars. I would miss my internal combustion engine.

[iamsam]

I couldn't imagine paying $180 a tank for my E30.... Holy crap.... I would literally go broke and not be able to attend school (which is a 40 min drive one way for me)

And also, I haven't delved into this too deeply, but if there is more E85, and more people use it, gas prices for normal gas will go down, right? I dunno....

But yeah, I don't want to have to pay higher taxes so everyone else in their shiny new "flex fuel" SUVs can guzzle the stuff and feel good about themselves... I have never owned a car newer that 1997, and probably won't for many years.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^

Not enough farm ground to even make enough ethanol to lower the price of petrol fuel via supply and demand alone. Why because the ethanol is way more costly to make into motor fuel, only reason its happening now is because you, me, and everyone else is subsidizing it with our tax monies. Ethanol cant stand on its own, with out the govt doing something the make the cheaper and BETTER alternative (you know OIL and Petrol Product) artificially more expensive, you are seeing that now to some degree.

[M-technik-3]

180usd.

What does that equate to in your currency? Also is your healthcare funded by taxes and the fed system. We as you know don't have that.

If you don't like the idea of paying for a business that makes trillions and wants you and I to pay for it then I suggest you write your State and Federal Reps and Senators and say NO.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^

It been passed and is being implemented no amount of writing will stop it.

I dont even get the "form thanks for your input/concern letter" back from ANY of my representatives anymore state or federal. Well my US congressmen still sends one most of the time the others are just tired of hearing me bitch. One only assume it gets deleted or trashed before anyone even read them anymore, needless to say we dont see eye to eye

[James]

Food or fuel, good choice America.