Why do Americans still dislike Atheists?

[Earendil]

Having blind faith in the United States of America is EXACTLY like having blind faith in Jesus Christ.

Exactly. I whole heartedly agree. But would you agree that having educated and reasoned faith in something, even if you are surrounded by people with blind faith on the same subject, does not make ones educated and reasoned faith less?

[Earendil]

Yes but I lost respect for him for his liberal views but I would still be his friend and just avoid the subject. Everyone would be a bigot if we classified it that way.

May I suggest that you perhaps could have worded it better? :)

Personally, I'm not friends with anyone I have "lost respect" for. I respect them based on the same qualities they make them my friends. I even hold respect for strangers, until they lose it. I hold respect for people I disagree with. Some of the people I respect the most, I disagree with on major issues.

Perhaps we have two different ideas about what "respect" is?

[z31maniac]

Exactly. I whole heartedly agree. But would you agree that having educated and reasoned faith in something, even if you are surrounded by people with blind faith on the same subject, does not make ones educated and reasoned faith less?

That's a very interesting point.

[scabzzzz]

Naturally, we'd have to define "Greater good of humanity", but actually most people that devote their entire life, and make incredible self sacrifice, are people of some faith. The believe there is worth in benefiting fellow man over benefiting ones self. They believe their is inherent worth in that alone. I agree. I believe in myself. I have faith in myself, is that not good enough? Obviously, they did too.
A very intelligent philosophically minded atheist recently told me that he would help another human, but only if one of the following were true:
1. By helping, they could benefit society more than himself
2. By helping, his own ability to benefit society was not detramented.

His guiding "moral" was for the betterment of humanity. Since there were times when he couldn't guarantee (or say that the chances were better) that he was bettering humanity due to his own "above average" ability to do so, he often times did not.

The most selfless people I know do it based on faith that there is inherent value in doing so, not on a set of logical rules. So in my own personal experience, I would say that those that serve to better humanity, are people of faith, not those trying to explain the world only using logic.

As for inventors, many of the brightest people believe there is a God. Many Philosophers come to the conclusion that a God makes sense (or that particular types of God's make sense).

I would be curious if your generalization of the scientific and humanitarian communities as not holding a faith was shot from the hip, or if you have some proof or argument for the point. Definitely a shot from the hip, no intentions of it...The fact there is no proof of either makes even more sense to me to make the issue null in my head. Faith is such a funny thing... you can attach it to absolutely anything about absolutely everything. I hate my fucking life, right? Well, Im looking for ways to feel better. A religious person would say "You need God in your life. He cures all evil". Ummm... All right. I have a problem with that. I cant see this entity. I cant feel it. I have to wait until something crazy/spontaneous/coincidental happens before I can attach this "Faith" stuff to it. When we cant explain what is happening, we all tend to make something up. Finding spiritual peace within oneself should happen long before we attach religion to the problem and call it an answer. People do that so quickly and without any sort of reasoning or logic behind it. If its miraculous, it must be God! God is with us! He exists! :-? If he does exist, he will understand why I cant buy into it, and why it doesnt compute to me. Faith and logic dont mix well. I cant think of any bigger sin than to proclaim religious beliefs and then do exactly the opposite, while expecting forgiveness. All because you're a follower. American Christians are some of the poorest examples on this beautiful Earth.



We do? You do realize some of the largest religions still do this, right? It's not something humanity has stopped doing as it has acquired more knowledge. I find you brutal judgement of people here to be the kind I was speaking of in the first couple posts. You don't know a ton about world religions, history, or the human psychy, yet you feel the desire to blast large segments of the population as "stupid".
I never said those were my feelings. C'mon man. Dont tear apart that sentence. Its a general statement. Ask any average child.. "Would you worship a goat?" What the fuck do you think they would say? And after they say it, rest assured we taught that child everything that came out of their mouth. And I think you know what their response would be.

It doesn't work to belittle religions for thinking less of atheists, if atheists turn around and do the exact same thing. I don't know what the average atheist believes, but most religions teach tolerance, not condemnation. Whether the followers are able to pull off such a hard feat is sadly, another issue :(
Trust me, I wouldnt even talk about religion to my IRL peers. Its not even an issue. Its only a topic on this board, and I usually stay out of here for this reason. Its pretty fucked up to have your beliefs out on a public forum on the chopping block for the next asshole to come along and say "Youre wrong" and tear apart your internal belief system. But ya know, at the same time, some people seriously need it.


I believe you are correct, that is the Christian understanding. The belief is that God actually knows the hearts and minds, intentions and disabilities that every individual faces throughout their life. The final judgement of a person will be for God to make. A God of knowing and caring, not one of rules. Rest assured, I am not worried. Ask anyone that knows me in real life, Im genuine.

Other systems of faith promote different, but rather similar things. The more I learn about different religions (that are based on a supreme being) the more I realize how poorly the follows (or the loudest ones) are at representing the core beliefs of the religion. <--- The point of this thread
The bumpers ticker "Dear Lord, please save me form your followers" is a funny and also a sadly true joke.

I think everyone, including those in this forum, would do well to learn something about the major religions of the world. If one doesn't care to learn, than perhaps those that choose ignorance on a subject could stop being judgmental of other human beings until they are more educated. And while I'm sure the atheists reading there are getting their feathers ruffled because they think I'm aiming this comment at them, I'm actually aiming it more at the religious loudmouths of the world :)

Woa man.

First off, this is the internet. Second off, this is r3v. Thirdly, I am scabzzzz. Now that we're clear on that, I will make a real post completely sans troll-mode....

I grew up in a Lutheran Christian home/school. I do know a bit about religions, and I do know a bit about people in general that subscribe to them. I never claimed to be an athiest really, I have no label. Im a firm believer in a moral code that lies within all of us. The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, the ability to reason with another human being regardless of their beliefs, and the ability to find common ground with ANYONE no matter what. If one CAN NOT do this, one does not deserve to live. See:Osama Bin Laden
Check my notes in bold for responses to the specifics of your rebuttal.

[Kershaw]

the bible, on a whole, is not a fairy tale. a lot of of it is pretty true. king david did exist. the jews were enslaved by the egyptians. jesus was a real person. etc.

some parts are absolute fabrication though. like genesis. lol genesis. carbon dating what? dinosaurs what? NONSENSE!

[scabzzzz]

the bible, on a whole, is not a fairy tale. a lot of of it is pretty true. king david did exist. the jews were enslaved by the egyptians. jesus was a real person. etc.

some parts are absolute fabrication though. like genesis. lol genesis. carbon dating what? dinosaurs what? NONSENSE!

I believe this ^

But when we start talking about Jesus rising from the dead and stuff though, c'mon now. Sounds like someone ate a lil too much peyote!

[Kershaw]

lulz

christians are easy to troll though. because you can poke at their beliefs ad nauseam with each example sounding more outlandish than the last. and all they can retort with is, "well you're going to hell!" which just makes me laugh. :) i cant say im tolerant and perfect all the time.

one thing farbin said made me lol. he posted that jewish, christian, and islamic religions all share the same god. like that is proof that god is the ONE ALMIGHTY!!OENOEN. ok, well lol. they were all the same section of the world. and they all started as off shoots of each other. if you wanted to, i suppose you could even call them different sects of the same religion, since they worship the same god. that said...

how does hinduism tie into christianity?

[Earendil]

I believe this ^

But when we start talking about Jesus rising from the dead and stuff though, c'mon now. Sounds like someone ate a lil too much peyote!

Having read parts of the Bible, people being dead, and then being alive, is the least strange thing. The least that a being claiming to have created us could do is restore the physical issue that caused death, and reinsert whatever spark of life/soul/essence back into the physical body.

What makes any belief to me hard to believe, is not the "amazing" or "unbelieveable". Just read science news for jaw dropping feats of "WTF". My mind is open to being blown by things I didn't think possible.

No, what makes it hard for me to believe things, is when it doesn't make any damn sense.

I'm more apt to believe my friend fell from a 30 story building and survived, than I am to believe that he ate a plate of shit. Sure, one is more attainable, but one just flat out doesn't make any damn sense!

[Kershaw]

omg lol. :rofl:

[dirtysix]

Just if anyone is wondering why 'religion' is in decline here, have a read back over this thread and try and figure out just where it has lead you.

With the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of this is just shouting at each other. I think that we, here, have lost our appetite for this type of conversation and have 'privatised' (perhaps moderated is a better word?) our beliefs. Although I cant speak for everyone, obviously.

PS. I'm a non believer, but that doesn't mean I'm right.

[Sagaris]

When I think about the Earth, solar system, life, and everything in it, there is just simply no way that it could happen and work so perfectly without a creator. People are entitled to their beliefs, however, I find that many people who claim to be "athiest" and "agnostic" label themselves as such as a way of justifying their choice to live how they want to live instead of follow some set of moral guidelines.

I am not here to argue over proof of what is right and wrong, homie don't play that, just stating my opinion.

[z31maniac]

When I think about the Earth, solar system, life, and everything in it, there is just simply no way that it could happen and work so perfectly without a creator. People are entitled to their beliefs, however, I find that many people who claim to be "athiest" and "agnostic" label themselves as such as a way of justifying their choice to live how they want to live instead of follow some set of moral guidelines.

I am not here to argue over proof of what is right and wrong, homie don't play that, just stating my opinion.

You imply that people who don't believe in God are without "morals" or refuse to hold themselves to any ethical standard?

[Earendil]

christians are easy to troll though. because...

As a serious reply, it's probably because what one believes to be intrinsic truths about the universe and reality weigh into how they approach the world and humanity quite deeply. To belittle ones belief and to not take it seriously is to poke pretty deep into the core of who they are as an individual. If you ask a person "Why" they made a particular desicion long enough, it will usually come down to "It was caused by random choice" or because they do or do not believe there is a God.

you can poke at their beliefs ad nauseam with each example sounding more outlandish than the last. and all they can retort with is, "well you're going to hell!" which just makes me laugh. :) i cant say im tolerant and perfect all the time.

You need to hang out with smarter people , or not be surprised when you attempt to start a discussion on a subject that you yourself don't take seriously, and using such blatent troll tactics. I'd probably tell you you're going to hell too, but not based on any religious beliefs I may have, but based on you being a poor excuse for a troll :finger:

one thing farbin said made me lol. he posted that jewish, christian, and islamic religions all share the same god. like that is proof that god is the ONE ALMIGHTY!!OENOEN. ok, well lol. they were all the same section of the world. and they all started as off shoots of each other. if you wanted to, i suppose you could even call them different sects of the same religion, since they worship the same god. that said...

how does hinduism tie into christianity?

I think you missed his point. Though admittedly, I'm not convinced I understood his point either, and the point that I currently understand, I'm not sure I believe to the extent that he wants his audience to.

[Earendil]

You imply that people who don't believe in God are without "morals" or refuse to hold themselves to any ethical standard?

Actually, he didn't imply that. He blatantly said that in his experience ("I find") a portion of the atheist population ("many people") use atheism as an excuse for having a flexible moral code.

He did not imply that all atheists don't have a moral code. Certainly not all Christians/Islamics have a moral code, even if they have a friggin book with it all written down it

[Earendil]

Just if anyone is wondering why 'religion' is in decline here, have a read back over this thread and try and figure out just where it has lead you.

I'm curious if by "here" you mean r3v, this generation, the US, western civ, or something else?

With the exception of 2 or 3 people, most of this is just shouting at each other. I think that we, here, have lost our appetite for this type of conversation and have 'privatised' (perhaps moderated is a better word?) our beliefs.

I think you are right. Though it certainly is not confined to Religion. See Politics, equality, or any other discussion that NEEDS educated and widespread discussion on a mature level with people that KNOW how to discuss complicated topics.

The problem I see is that no one knows how to philosophically debate or defend important ideas any more.

The answer to "Why do you believe that is true?" is never "Because it's true". No one believes something they know to be wrong, the question is why do you beleive it is right? Everything we hold to be true is knowledge that was aquired in some form, and in every form of knowledge acquisition could have been tricked. But few people accept this, and know how to avoid illogical and circular arguments.

For example, have someone try and defend something that "everyone" knows is true. You can catch most people in logical flaws in about 30 seconds, and they will probably become speechless shortly after, or just start repeating themselves.

This trend is rather sad in our society, not only because it prevents decent conversation among people about important subjects, it also causes those that might be right to be grouped in with those of "blind faith" because they do not poses the skills to verbally defend what experience has shown them to be true.

And then, there are the trolls :hitler:
Funny to have around on some topics, but on others they create the kind of noise that prevents ideas from being shared. There might be some people in the Tea Party that have some solid ideas and the ability to express them (a stretch, but possible) but they will never be heard because of the large number of people in that group that can't be labeled as anything other than trolls.