Really?!? Mud = Pollution?

[mrsleeve]

You completely missed the point. There's a huge difference between the naturally occurring Great Salt Lake and a bunch of people pouring tons of salt around a freshwater lake and watching it wash in.

No I think you missed my point. You know that the eastern mountains of the US once Towered many thousands of feet higher than the rockies ??? Why are they not that high any more EROSION its a natural process.

There are more than enough laws on the books as it is that cover the run off from construction and development sites. The govt cuts fire roads though out the forests will it be subject to the same laws as private industry NO IT WONT even though the effects are the same. if not worse since those fire roads done get a lick of maintenance. In fact its the loggers that maintain most of them,

For fucks sake the feds (since BHO took office) is closing lots of areas in the back county to use on horse back. FUCK I LIVE IN THE WEST Horses are a way of life here, and back country rides are part of our culture and a very important part of our life style. The mantra from the feds is you dont need to see it if you cant walk to it. Why are they doing this, mud and seeds from horse shit.

[Raxe]

I don't think anyone would argue against things eroding in nature. Again, people didn't put the mountains there. It's natural erosion on natural objects that were meant to be there. It's the same thing as if a company began dumping gigantic excess ice blocks into the ocean near the Great Barrier Reef. Yes ice occurs naturally, yes there is ice in some places of the ocean, no it's not supposed to be right there and it's messing shit up. It's pollution.

The problem is when human beings decide they are good enough to change the system without looking at all of the consequences their changes have. Especially out in forests and wild areas where the ecosystem is fragile and self sufficient. When people go in there and start changing things that were there for a reason such as trees on shores and hills it ends up causing a chain reaction that messes up a whole lot more than short sighted, profit-oriented project planners care about. That's what the governments are trying to prevent, because Lord knows no corporation gives a damn about anything but the shareholders wallets.

We have to remember that mother nature was around before us and we're only here because of it, we might want to try respecting it if we plan on sticking around.

[mrsleeve]

I don't think anyone would argue against things eroding in nature. Again, people didn't put the mountains there. It's natural erosion on natural objects that were meant to be there. It's the same thing as if a company began dumping gigantic excess ice blocks into the ocean near the Great Barrier Reef. Yes ice occurs naturally, yes there is ice in some places of the ocean, no it's not supposed to be right there and it's messing shit up. It's pollution.

Please spare me the environmental rhetoric, and but but its peoples fault. A lighting strike fire can and will burn MILLIONS of acres. The next spring after the snow melt and spring rains where do you think all the ash and dirt run off goes??? Yeah in the creeks and rivers, and this will continue for many years until the forest begins to take root again. So you are telling me that a little dirt for a few roads is more detrimental to the environment is worse than that??? Just because humans did right??

Funny you mention those evil corporations and all they want is profit at all costs right. Well in logging they replant the fucking harvested trees in many case, so they can come back cut them again. Modern Timber outfits are stewards of the land and act accordingly, most allow public use of their lands just as if it were state or nat forest lands. They know they have to take care of it to continue to reap the rewards from it.

There are plenty of laws on the books already for this, and stiff penalties for fucking up. I am on a small job in PA right now and have not been allowed to do ANYTHING since last friday, thanks to all the rain and environmental issues with the run off an mud. Why the gas company is scared shit less of the DEP and EPA. More laws are not needed

The problem is when human beings decide they are good enough to change the system without looking at all of the consequences their changes have. Especially out in forests and wild areas where the ecosystem is fragile and self sufficient. When people go in there and start changing things that were there for a reason such as trees on shores and hills it ends up causing a chain reaction that messes up a whole lot more than short sighted, profit-oriented project planners care about. That's what the governments are trying to prevent, because Lord knows no corporation gives a damn about anything but the shareholders wallets.

We have to remember that mother nature was around before us and we're only here because of it, we might want to try respecting it if we plan on sticking around.

Well again there is enough regulations on the books. With out farming,mining, drilling, and logging, we would still all be living in animal hide tents using stone tools and communicating, with pictograms and gruntings.

The computer you are on is full of gold, silver, lead, copper, silicon, mined from the ground for the electronics, Plastics from Petroleum production, run on electricity produced form coal or NG, brought to you on transmission lines made from Aluminum or copper also mined from the ground. Your house built from lumber cut by loggers, heated by NG or Propane from drilling, full of all the modern conveniences of the modern age. Food on the shelves at the store grown by farmers. Every facet of our lives is intertwined with these few industries.

You see thats all been made possible by people going forth and producing resources for the benefit of all of us. If this were a 100 years ago you would right about the lack of environmental protections, thats not how it is NOW.

I am for taking care of the environment and a responsible use of it. I am a hunter/fisherman/ and love the back country, I spend as much time as I can there. I am also in the energy business and I see every day the amount of red tape and bull shit imparted on industry. Trust me there is more than enough laws and regulation in regards to site and ROW run off, and Billions of dollars are spent to control it. In fact I have been sitting in my hotel room since last friday, not making any money (relatively speaking) 2000 miles from home thanks to these regulations, and a week of rain. Gas companies hands are tied thanks to the EPA and state DEP. The last thing that is needed is some vague proclamation that MUD is a pollutant, allowing even broader scope of govt control of particular industries, that greatly effect us all.

I am all for not shitting where we eat, but all this over the top regulations and activism is nothing more than an over reaching govts trying to exert even greater control over all of our lives

Edit: You seem to forget there is NOTHING we as humans can do to this ball of dirt that will stop the sun from coming up tomorrow. Mother nature will adapt life will carry on, its the nature of life. To think we have that much effect on the greater cycles of this planet is a foolish position to take.

[bmwstephen]

Please spare me the environmental rhetoric, and but but its peoples fault. A lighting strike fire can and will burn MILLIONS of acres. The next spring after the snow melt and spring rains where do you think all the ash and dirt run off goes??? Yeah in the creeks and rivers, and this will continue for many years until the forest begins to take root again. So you are telling me that a little dirt for a few roads is more detrimental to the environment is worse than that??? Just because humans did right??

Funny you mention those evil corporations and all they want is profit at all costs right. Well in logging they replant the fucking harvested trees in many case, so they can come back cut them again. Modern Timber outfits are stewards of the land and act accordingly, most allow public use of their lands just as if it were state or nat forest lands. They know they have to take care of it to continue to reap the rewards from it.

There are plenty of laws on the books already for this, and stiff penalties for fucking up. I am on a small job in PA right now and have not been allowed to do ANYTHING since last friday, thanks to all the rain and environmental issues with the run off an mud. Why the gas company is scared shit less of the DEP and EPA. More laws are not needed



Well again there is enough regulations on the books. With out farming,mining, drilling, and logging, we would still all be living in animal hide tents using stone tools and communicating, with pictograms and gruntings.

The computer you are on is full of gold, silver, lead, copper, silicon, mined from the ground for the electronics, Plastics from Petroleum production, run on electricity produced form coal or NG, brought to you on transmission lines made from Aluminum or copper also mined from the ground. Your house built from lumber cut by loggers, heated by NG or Propane from drilling, full of all the modern conveniences of the modern age. Food on the shelves at the store grown by farmers.

You see thats all been made possible by people going forth and producing resources for the benefit of all of us. If this were a 100 years ago you would right about the lack of environmental protections, thats not how it is NOW.

I am for taking care of the environment and a responsible use of it. I am a hunter/fisherman/ and love the back country, I spend as much time as I can there. I am also in the energy business and I see every day the amount of red tape and bull shit imparted on industry. Trust me there is more than enough laws and regulation in regards to site and ROW run off, and Billions of dollars are spent to control it. In fact I have been sitting in my hotel room since last friday, not making any money (relatively speaking) 2000 miles from home thanks to these regulations, and a week of rain. Gas companies hands are tied thanks to the EPA and state DEP. The last thing that is needed is some vague proclamation that MUD is a pollutant, allowing even broader scope of govt control of particular industries, that greatly effect us all.

I am all for not shitting where we eat, but all this over the top regulations and activism is nothing more than an over reaching govts trying to exert even greater control over all of our lives

well said. as a nature man myself I am all for protecting the environment but I feel the regulatory standards now a days are more than enough and anymore will just impede on your standard of living and cause more harm than good. I am in the energy consulting industry and oil companies, contrary to mainstream views, are not as evil as you think. they are working hard to provide goods and services for you at fair value all while ensuring they do so responsibly. But regulations are making it more and more difficult for us to do so every day leading to unintended consequences. you think exxon liked to drill out into the sea?? hell no its very expensive, dangerous, high risk and polluting, and resource intensive than land drilling. but thanks to the fuggin EPA and waffleswaffleswaffles, they have no choice as they have artificially made domestic/land drilling a whole shit load more expensive

[frankenbeemer]

Edit: You seem to forget there is NOTHING we as humans can do to this ball of dirt that will stop the sun from coming up tomorrow. Mother nature will adapt life will carry on, its the nature of life. To think we have that much effect on the greater cycles of this planet is a foolish position to take.

"Pack your shit, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet will be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance." George Carlin.

[Dozyproductions]

To think we have that much effect on the greater cycles of this planet is a foolish position to take.

Our existence on this planet is a fragile one. Greater cycles? Are we talking about millions of years kind of cycles? With a certain perspective, yes we do have an effect, it would be foolish to think otherwise.

[ck_taft325is]

Our existence on this planet is a fragile one. Greater cycles? Are we talking about millions of years kind of cycles? With a certain perspective, yes we do have an effect, it would be foolish to think otherwise.

But it would be equally if not more foolish to believe we are the sole cause of change on this planet. The universe is a big, big place and frankly our input is quite small. Either we're infinitesimal little bastards or the main focus and sole purpose of this planet? Both sound pretty equally stupid.

[Kershaw]

are you really saying that the erosion of the eastern mountains is somehow comparable to the dumping of pollution we cause?

we dump tons of pollution into a stream/river/bay/lake etc in a matter of weeks. the erosion of mountains takes millenia.

[Dozyproductions]

But it would be equally if not more foolish to believe we are the sole cause of change on this planet. The universe is a big, big place and frankly our input is quite small. Either we're infinitesimal little bastards or the main focus and sole purpose of this planet? Both sound pretty equally stupid.

You're correct on all points. And this planet will always find ways to correct itself but in a time frame that we can't honestly expect to consider practical. Lets forget universal implications for thats either for a religion thread or why the fuck we ain't in space kind of thread. Lets stay earthbound for thats what were have considerable amount of control and impact on.

Yes, there are seasons, weather patterns, historical shifts in climate but humanity has taken the role (through some serious baby making) as being the catalyst to a lot of natural processes.

[mrsleeve]

are you really saying that the erosion of the eastern mountains is somehow comparable to the dumping of pollution we cause?

we dump tons of pollution into a stream/river/bay/lake etc in a matter of weeks. the erosion of mountains takes millenia.

Ummm no the point was that the mother nature is a far greater culprit for making mud than humans


We are talking about small amounts of run off from logging roads and what not, not industrial wastes. Both of which are highly regulated as it is. The point has always been MORE regulation is not necessary.


Long term cycling of the weather on this ball of dirt is no where near known, let alone the long running solar cycles or changes of the thing that drives or weather in general.

[joshh]

are you really saying that the erosion of the eastern mountains is somehow comparable to the dumping of pollution we cause?

we dump tons of pollution into a stream/river/bay/lake etc in a matter of weeks. the erosion of mountains takes millenia.

http://video.tuscaloosanews.com/video/60004407001

Did we cause tat slide? Did it take a millenia? Nope....

[mrsleeve]

^

Lots of mountain sides around where I am in PA are sliding down on to roads and shit lately as well.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Or this one that is sliding into a riverbed.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/wyoming/article_4ccbe263-b320-573d-9914-9cfdb9a92633.html

http://www.kulr8.com/news/wyoming/Must-wait-for-mudslide-to-stop-on-its-own-122243959.html

[joshh]

^^It's nature at work....yet the EPA wants the small minded to think humans are the cause of all mud related slides. Therefore it's "pollution".

http://www.maniacworld.com/Kayakers-Escape-Landslide.html

Nature is polluting our waters!!!

What about the Mississippi? Must be a human cause somehow!

[mrsleeve]

^^It's nature at work....yet the EPA wants the small minded to think humans are the cause of all mud related slides. Therefore it's "pollution".



What about the Mississippi? Must be a human cause somehow!

well duhh when you blow up the dyke holding it in, of course it our fault all that water and mud goes all over the place (this is sarcasm to those that dont get it )