Is the debt ceiling unconstitutional?

[nando]

if they do that then they need to do something else to have more drilling and exploration here. Otherwise we'll be sending those dollars to the middle east and russia instead of north america.

[gwb72tii]

If you give $2 to someone and in return got $3 back does it make since to stop giving them $2 even if you had to borrow the $2 to get the $3?. There are alot of programs that are wasteful and need to be trimmed but there are alot that save the country money that shouldn't be trimmed. There are many research and education programs that are being cut that shouldn't be. You can't boil down the complexities of the global market, the entitlement programs and the country's debt to the example of a credit card. It's not the same.

this "multiplier" effect has been moved to the dust bin of history
there is no, repeat no multiplier effect from government spending. a dollar taxed from the private sector so Obama can the turn around and direct it to his favorite sectors (green tech etc) is tax dollars the private sector no longer can spend. keynes is dead, thankfully.

all taxes are regeressive, they slow economic growth

can you name any governmrnt program that;
1..actually saves money
2. other than defense that the private sector could do for less

[nando]

I can think of a few, but specifically anything related to pure R&D. Where there isn't a clear profit potential but in 100 years the applications will be important (we have lots of history for proof). this could include education and worker training (the private sector needs to take on more of this, they've been pushing it on the public forever).

but these are like .0001% of our budget. 89% of it is entitlements. The only way to fix it is to A) raise taxes (flat tax would be fine with me, no loopholes or exemptions) and B) cut entitlements. that means raising the retirement age and cutting benefits. And real medical reform.

it's obvious the tax cuts didn't work. And lowering taxes on giant corporations doesn't help either - they're already flush with cash. They'll just invest the rest of their cash overseas where they can actually earn something. If they wanted to hire they could do so now.

[joshh]

I can think of a few, but specifically anything related to pure R&D. Where there isn't a clear profit potential but in 100 years the applications will be important (we have lots of history for proof). this could include education and worker training (the private sector needs to take on more of this, they've been pushing it on the public forever).

but these are like .0001% of our budget. 89% of it is entitlements. The only way to fix it is to A) raise taxes (flat tax would be fine with me, no loopholes or exemptions) and B) cut entitlements. that means raising the retirement age and cutting benefits. And real medical reform.

it's obvious the tax cuts didn't work. And lowering taxes on giant corporations doesn't help either - they're already flush with cash. They'll just invest the rest of their cash overseas where they can actually earn something. If they wanted to hire they could do so now.

Not only did we see tax cuts but we entered two huge spending wars. Defense spending could easily be cut but both parties are into spending as much as we have for these wars...including Libya.
Let alone our own sabotage internally (I.E. Freddy and Fannie among other things).

[herbivor]

this "multiplier" effect has been moved to the dust bin of history
there is no, repeat no multiplier effect from government spending. a dollar taxed from the private sector so Obama can the turn around and direct it to his favorite sectors (green tech etc) is tax dollars the private sector no longer can spend. keynes is dead, thankfully.

all taxes are regeressive, they slow economic growth

can you name any governmrnt program that;
1..actually saves money
2. other than defense that the private sector could do for less

Thanks for the set up. There have been lots of external studies to show the external savings of many government programs. Many government sectors whether local, state or federal do the same analysis as any business would do to determine if the program is worth continuing to pay for. But just to give you a few examples:
Planned parenthood $2 to $4 depending on what you are comparing per $1 invested.
EPA: At least $2 saved for every $1 spent
NIH research: At least $2 for every $1
NASA: At least $7 for every $1 (an older stat, couldn't find the most recent).

Would the private sector do any of these things better and cheaper? Maybe for small undertakings or contributions to larger programs, yes, but for large coordinated programs such as military and those listed above and many others, the government program IS the most efficient solution. Will there be some waste as a result of being big? Absolutely, every large company has waste to try and deal with. The military is one of the most wasteful government entities we have. But some of the cuts for many of these programs are going to hurt in away where it's beyond "trimming the fat" and it will be trimming the muscle and effectively worsen the economy over time.

[gwb72tii]

Thanks for the set up. There have been lots of external studies to show the external savings of many government programs. Many government sectors whether local, state or federal do the same analysis as any business would do to determine if the program is worth continuing to pay for. But just to give you a few examples:
Planned parenthood $2 to $4 depending on what you are comparing per $1 invested.
EPA: At least $2 saved for every $1 spent
NIH research: At least $2 for every $1
NASA: At least $7 for every $1 (an older stat, couldn't find the most recent).

Would the private sector do any of these things better and cheaper? Maybe for small undertakings or contributions to larger programs, yes, but for large coordinated programs such as military and those listed above and many others, the government program IS the most efficient solution. Will there be some waste as a result of being big? Absolutely, every large company has waste to try and deal with. The military is one of the most wasteful government entities we have. But some of the cuts for many of these programs are going to hurt in away where it's beyond "trimming the fat" and it will be trimming the muscle and effectively worsen the economy over time.

there is no way to defend your number on planned parenthood
there is no way it should receive any federal tax dollars at all in the first place

[Wiglaf]

You guys are of the opinion that the democrats have not compromised and it's a total standoff? I'd say that's quite incorrect.
Dems have caved on virtually everything except the tax loopholes, and Republicans are at this point just being hardasses for posterity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=4&src=rechp

(this coming from a conservative columnist..)

The worst part of all this noise is that even if we flushed the budget and went 100% with the GOP version, it amounts to cosmetic damage to the social programs that people love to hate. Overall, not a fucking dent.

Nothing but assholes on both sides of the coin right now.

[Fusion]

I would rather clean the toilets next to a truck stop that served bad food to hundreds of truckers causing massive diarrhea, than be the next president and naively try to clean up the diarrhea you guys are talking about.