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    #46
    And here is Elmendorf's opinion of extending the Bush Era Tax cuts:

    According to the head of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, a permanent extension of the Bush-era tax cuts may provide a temporary boost to the U.S. economy, but would then lessen growth by pushing up interest rates.

    Douglas Elmendorf said extending breaks that are supposed to expire at the end of this year would increase demand in the coming years by putting more money in consumers’ pockets, but over the long term the tax cuts would hurt the economy because the government, in their need to finance the loan, would be forced to borrow so much money that it would begin competing with private companies, inevitably driving up interest rates.

    “The problem is that if those tax cuts are not accompanied by other changes in the government budget and are simply funded through borrowing,” the borrowing “crowds out other private investment in productive capital -- in the sorts of equipment, the computers, the machinery, the buildings -- that are the source of long-term economy growth,” Elmendorf told the Senate Budget Committee today according to Bloomberg.

    Unfortunately, Elmendorf said lawmakers cannot avoid this long term issue simply by extending the tax cuts only for individuals whose income is less than $200,000 or $250,000 for couples filing jointly, as President Barack Obama has recommended.

    The President's proposal which covers 97 percent of Americans only reduces the deficit by about 25 percent more than the Republican counterpart.

    “Extending all the tax cuts except for those higher-income people has three-quarters or four-fifths, roughly, of the positive effects and the negative effects of extending all of the tax cuts,” he said.

    Elmendorf said lawmakers could only avoid higher interest rates in the future if the tax cuts were paired with reduced spending or higher tax revenue from another source. Any large increases in government spending would have the same long term effect on interest rates.

    The United States is in the midst of a budget crisis. The spending cuts being proposed by the Republicans would have drastic effects on many Americans and fails to even come close to reducing the budget as much as this administration's proposal. Despite this, Obama's plan still falls short of solving the problem.

    America needs major tax reform whose sole purpose is to fix the budget. The best way for America to achieve this goal is by implementing a “national sales” or value-added tax. A VAT would not only go a long way toward balancing our budget and reducing America's debt, but would serve the further purpose of partially balancing America's trade deficit and increasing the rate of savings. Furthermore, a VAT would have a less detrimental effect on the U.S. economy when compared to the income tax. Major tax reform is necessary and a VAT provides the “least worst solution.” We may not like it, but it's really the only choice we have at this point.
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      #47
      Originally posted by herbivor View Post
      And here is Elmendorf's opinion of extending the Bush Era Tax cuts:
      “The problem is that if those tax cuts are not accompanied by SUBSTANTIAL FEDERAL SPENDING REDUCTIONS,” the borrowing “crowds out other private investment in productive capital -- in the sorts of equipment, the computers, the machinery, the buildings -- that are the source of long-term economy growth,” Elmendorf told the Senate Budget Committee today according to Bloomberg.
      fixed
      “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
      Sir Winston Churchill

      Comment


        #48
        Herbie. The. IRS dose accept donations. If you feel as if your not taxed enough you are more than welcome to pay more than you need too.

        I say to all of you that think taxes should be higher put your fucking money wher your yap is a cut the IRS a check for an extra 20k a year.
        Originally posted by Fusion
        If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
        The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


        The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
        William Pitt-

        Comment


          #49
          I'd really miss 20k coming out of my checking account.....I am on R3V after all. On the other hand, if I made 5 million a year, the equivalent of 96 "me's", I doubt I'd even realize it was gone. The top marginal tax rate from 1951 to 1964 was 91% and applied to married couples bringing in more than $400,000. That would be $3,506,864 adjusted for inflation. They also had 25 tax brackets. And the economy was trucking right along.

          My income, adjusted for inflation would have put me in the 20.02% bracket in 1951, about 5% less than I currently owe each year.

          Today our top rate is 35% and applies to all married couples making more than $379,150. We currently have 6 tax brackets. Would it be so bad to add on a few more tax brackets with higher percents that apply to the millionaires and billionaires of our time? And you want to take that down to a single "flat tax" for everyone? What is the correct percentage you feel should apply to everyone?
          Last edited by Morrison; 09-14-2011, 05:52 AM.
          "I think we consider too much the good luck of the early bird and not enough the bad luck of the early worm."
          -Franklin D. Roosevelt

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Morrison View Post
            I'd really miss 20k coming out of my checking account.....I am on R3V after all. On the other hand, if I made 5 million a year, the equivalent of 96 "me's", I doubt I'd even realize it was gone. The top marginal tax rate from 1951 to 1964 was 91% and applied to married couples bringing in more than $400,000. That would be $3,506,864 adjusted for inflation. They also had 25 tax brackets. And the economy was trucking right along.

            My income, adjusted for inflation would have put me in the 20.02% bracket in 1951, about 5% less than I currently owe each year.

            Today our top rate is 35% and applies to all married couples making more than $379,150. We currently have 6 tax brackets. Would it be so bad to add on a few more tax brackets with higher percents that apply to the millionaires and billionaires of our time? And you want to take that down to a single "flat tax" for everyone? What is the correct percentage you feel should apply to everyone?
            all true, but the point you miss is the take the federal government took from GDP was about 19%, where it has been thru the years REGARDLESS of tax rates.
            this was the genius of reagan, that lower tax rates expanded the economy and 19% from a bigger economy resulted in higher rev's to the govt. congress refused to honor its pledge to control spending.
            “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
            Sir Winston Churchill

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by gwb72tii View Post
              all true, but the point you miss is the take the federal government took from GDP was about 19%, where it has been thru the years REGARDLESS of tax rates.
              this was the genius of reagan, that lower tax rates expanded the economy and 19% from a bigger economy resulted in higher rev's to the govt. congress refused to honor its pledge to control spending.
              Agreed, why don't we go ahead and put the tax rates back to Reagan Era tax rates?
              sigpic

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                #52
                Originally posted by herbivor View Post
                Agreed, why don't we go ahead and put the tax rates back to Reagan Era tax rates?
                if congress had some sort of specific law, such as spending being limited to a % of GDP, you could probably lower the rates further
                “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                Sir Winston Churchill

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                  Herbie. The. IRS dose accept donations. If you feel as if your not taxed enough you are more than welcome to pay more than you need too.

                  I say to all of you that think taxes should be higher put your fucking money wher your yap is a cut the IRS a check for an extra 20k a year.
                  If I made $200,000 or more I'd be more than happy to. Unfortunately you are asking a household with a gross income of $70,000 to pay more than the 12% we already do. LOL that would seriously affect our standard of living, which is already plenty modest. ;)

                  It's not that we don't think WE (middle class) aren't taxed high enough... it's that we don't think the RICH are taxed high enough.

                  I do agree a fair tax is the way to go and abolishing the IRS all together would be a wonderful thing to see in my lifetime. I don't however think our numbers for those brackets would be close at all. We'd probably disagree. ;)

                  Historically... taxing the rich does work. The rich stay rich and continue to operate their businesses as usual.

                  "A good memory for quotes combined with a poor memory for attribution can lead to a false sense of originality."
                  -----------------------------------------
                  91 318is Turbo Sold
                  87 325 Daily driver Sold
                  06 4.8is X5
                  06 Mtec X3
                  05 4.4i X5 Sold
                  92 325ic Sold & Re-purchased
                  90 325i Sold
                  97 328is Sold
                  01 323ci Sold
                  92 325i Sold
                  83 528e Totaled
                  98 328i Sold
                  93 325i Sold

                  Comment


                    #54
                    ^

                    Again put your money where your ideals and yap are. Pay double or triple what your official tax bill is and then you have room to talk. I work way too hard for my money to give even more than I have too to the govt.


                    The "rich" already pay what 9?% of the tax burden in this country really that is not enough?? As far as a flat tax the IRS goes away, and EVERYONE pays 10% no matter who you are or what you make 10% you want fair taxation on the income there it is.

                    We should not be taxing productivity in the 1st place its a unnecessary burden, and hampers it. CONSUMPTION is where we need to be placing the burden of taxiation. This way each dollar spent is only taxed 1 fucking time not 5. Eliminate the IRS gas taxes, SSI, Use, severance, and all the other hidden taxes on every thing, and place 9-11% VAT on all retail transactions, other than food. You keep all the money you earn each week, and when you buy shit it GETS EVERYONE, from the drug dealers to the under the table illegals. The VAT will only be at the retail level not each step of supply for the production of products. The feds still get the 12ish % of GDP, the economy will take off, and thrive, the IRS can no longer be used as a weapon against individuals and business unpopular to the powers that be, its a win fucking win. But sadly it will never happen mostly due to the last thing I mentioned.



                    To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it. - Thomas Jefferson
                    Last edited by mrsleeve; 09-14-2011, 06:16 PM.
                    Originally posted by Fusion
                    If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                    The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                    The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                    William Pitt-

                    Comment


                      #55
                      How is taxing the rich "fair"? I work my ass off to get rich only to have the govt. steal (let's not kid each other cause that's what it is) to support people that vote for them. And thus keep them in power. BTW, I'm probably considered low middle class but I work for my money and don't expect a handout. Even growing up poor, I never expected a handout and was taught to work for what I want. 47% of people in this country don't pay taxes and that's fair? A guy I work with (whom I actually like personally) got back more in taxes than he paid in. Why? Because he has 2 kids and doesn't make much money. Is that my fault? I have to pay more because HE made the decisions he made? He's young and didn't really see the fault in that. That's the mentality in this country today. It's not "fair" that you make more money than me. It doesn't matter that you work harder and are probably smarter than me. Why can't I afford a turbo build for my E30? That's not fair! A turbo in every pot is what I say!


                      On a complete side note, why do all the hippies love Apple even though it's an "evil" corporation that uses chinese slave labor?

                      Comment


                        #56
                        ^If the gov't doesn't "steal" your money... how does it sustain itself? Do you think our country could survive without a government?

                        See this is the problem with most people in the country... rich, poor, or otherwise. People don't give a rat's ass about the country itself. You want to keep making your millions... then you need to support the system that allows you to do it. Everyone thinks "me, me, me."

                        Originally posted by klavender1 View Post
                        47% of people in this country don't pay taxes and that's fair?
                        If you really think that... you have no idea how taxes in this country work. EVERYONE, including the illegals pay taxes. They pay .44 cents on every dollar of gasoline they buy, they pay 8% (in TX) of every transaction they make, and they pay probably a hundred other taxes as Sleeve pointed out.

                        Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                        To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it. - Thomas Jefferson
                        And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. - John F. Kennedy

                        Sleeve, quotes penned in one part of history do not apply equally to all parts of history.
                        "A good memory for quotes combined with a poor memory for attribution can lead to a false sense of originality."
                        -----------------------------------------
                        91 318is Turbo Sold
                        87 325 Daily driver Sold
                        06 4.8is X5
                        06 Mtec X3
                        05 4.4i X5 Sold
                        92 325ic Sold & Re-purchased
                        90 325i Sold
                        97 328is Sold
                        01 323ci Sold
                        92 325i Sold
                        83 528e Totaled
                        98 328i Sold
                        93 325i Sold

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Schnitzer318is View Post


                          And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. - John F. Kennedy

                          Sleeve, quotes penned in one part of history do not apply equally to all parts of history.
                          This is where you are totally and 100% mistaken, the wisdom of the founders is based on a study of Thousands of years history and all forms or govt. Their wisdom is just as important today as it was 240+ years ago. Many of the reasons they fought for the freedoms to start this great country are manifesting them selves once again in our own govt, despite the founders best efforts to keep that from happening by giving us the Constitution.


                          This is the point that all modern politicians (and schools) are trying to make that, the Constitution is old and the founders did not foresee all the stuff of the modern world and so it should be throw away and we should make one that reflects our modern system. BULL SHIT, the basic Freedoms of free men dont change from century to century. Please explain to me why these still dont make sense

                          A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.- Thomas Jefferson

                          The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.- Thomas Jefferson

                          They were right then and they are right still to this day, its our own fault, our parents fault, and even out grand parents fault, though our collective complacency, we have let our govt grow and morph into the very thing our Forefathers fought and died to break away from. Sadly there is no place left to go to start anew, the great experiment in self governance is nearly come to an end. While I dont think its dead yet and can be saved, I fear it may still end up being too little to late, and we actually may be witness to the fall from prominence. Its ideologies like yours that are at the root of the cause, for they have been propagated for more than a century and bare little no resemblance to the values and principals that founded and made this country into what has become.

                          I can throw a few more quotes out there in if you like. The JFK quote was to stir the nation an the people into support for the space race, and bring about a sense of common cause as like there was in the early 40's.
                          Last edited by mrsleeve; 09-14-2011, 09:12 PM.
                          Originally posted by Fusion
                          If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                          The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                          The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                          Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                          William Pitt-

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by Schnitzer318is View Post
                            If I made $200,000 or more I'd be more than happy to. Unfortunately you are asking a household with a gross income of $70,000 to pay more than the 12% we already do. LOL that would seriously affect our standard of living, which is already plenty modest. ;)

                            It's not that we don't think WE (middle class) aren't taxed high enough... it's that we don't think the RICH are taxed high enough.

                            I do agree a fair tax is the way to go and abolishing the IRS all together would be a wonderful thing to see in my lifetime. I don't however think our numbers for those brackets would be close at all. We'd probably disagree. ;)

                            Historically... taxing the rich does work. The rich stay rich and continue to operate their businesses as usual.

                            the top 1% earn 26% of all income and pay 40% of income taxes
                            they pay enuf
                            part of the problem is the 40% who pay no tax at all, or actually get more $ back than they pay in
                            “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                            Sir Winston Churchill

                            Comment


                              #59
                              and your chart is a good one, but should include tax dollars collected as a percentage of GDP
                              per a previous post, its interesting when the top bracket was reduced in 2003, tax receipts exploded, and the rich paid a higher percentage of the total taxes collected after the reduction
                              “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                              Sir Winston Churchill

                              Comment


                                #60
                                ^
                                Not to mention when they were lowered in 1920 and gave birth to the roaring 20's
                                Originally posted by Fusion
                                If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                                The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                                The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                                Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                                William Pitt-

                                Comment

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