"Pass this jobs bill!"

[Schnitzer318is]

This is where you are totally and 100% mistaken, the wisdom of the founders is based on a study of Thousands of years history and all forms or govt. Their wisdom is just as important today as it was 240+ years ago. Many of the reasons they fought for the freedoms to start this great country are manifesting them selves once again in our own govt, despite the founders best efforts to keep that from happening by giving us the Constitution.


Please explain to me why these still dont make sense

A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.- Thomas Jefferson

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.- Thomas Jefferson

They were right then and they are right still to this day, its our own fault, our parents fault, and even out grand parents fault, though our collective complacency, we have let our govt grow and morph into the very thing our Forefathers fought and died to break away from. Sadly there is no place left to go to start anew, the great experiment in self governance is nearly come to an end. While I dont think its dead yet and can be saved, I fear it may still end up being too little to late, and we actually may be witness to the fall from prominence. Its ideologies like yours that are at the root of the cause, for they have been propagated for more than a century and bare little no resemblance to the values and principals that founded and made this country into what has become.

Here's the problem... you are thinking in absolutes. As in 100% or 0%... no in between. I did not say that they didn't apply AT ALL... but that they did not apply equally. Think of it like this... we have 240 more years of cumulative knowledge than the fore fathers did when they penned the Constitution. By itself that is reasoning to re-examine the applicability of the original meaning. 240 years of things happening that the founders could not even dream of, predict, or possibly even comprehend.

To presume you know for a fact the founders would feel the same way about the words they wrote now as they did originally is not only ridiculous but borderline God complex.

This is the point that all modern politicians (and schools) are trying to make that, the Constitution is old and the founders did not foresee all the stuff of the modern world and so it should be throw away and we should make one that reflects our modern system. BULL SHIT, the basic Freedoms of free men dont change from century to century.

You are right, the basic freedoms do not change. But how they are achieved most certainly does. Constitutions are living documents and should continually evolve with the civilization that lives by it. I don't know what school you went to but I have yet to be in a class where a professor says we should "throw away," "discard," or "create a new" Constitution.

You are also right in that we could be coming to an end as a democracy. We were on borrowed time anyway having well exceeded the longest lasting democracy's length of viability. And unbelievably we are going to fail for the same reason... GREED.

the top 1% earn 26% of all income and pay 40% of income taxes
they pay enuf
part of the problem is the 40% who pay no tax at all, or actually get more $ back than they pay in

I'll copy and paste my original response to this baseless stance. WE ALL PAY TAXES... EVEN ILLEGALS.

"If you really think that... you have no idea how taxes in this country work. EVERYONE, including the illegals pay taxes. They pay .44 cents on every dollar of gasoline they buy, they pay 8% (in TX) of every transaction they make, and they pay probably a hundred other taxes as Sleeve pointed out."

And the top 1% pays 40% of INCOME TAXES... not 40% of ALL TAXES.

[Morrison]

and your chart is a good one, but should include tax dollars collected as a percentage of GDP
per a previous post, its interesting when the top bracket was reduced in 2003, tax receipts exploded, and the rich paid a higher percentage of the total taxes collected after the reduction

^
Not to mention when they were lowered in 1920 and gave birth to the roaring 20's

I should also mention Clinton's tax increases of 1993 which also saw growth in GDP, and led to a balanced budget.

At the time, conservatives had this to say:

"Clearly, this is a job-killer in the short-run. The impact on job creation is going to be devastating."
—Rep. Dick Armey, (Republican, Texas)

"The tax increase will…lead to a recession…and will actually increase the deficit."
—Rep. Newt Gingrich (Republican, Georgia)

"I will make you this bet. I am willing to risk the mortgage on it…the deficit will be up; unemployment will be up; in my judgment, inflation will be up."
—Sen. Robert Packwood (Republican, Oregon)

"The deficit four years from today will be higher than it is today, not lower."
—Sen. Phil Gramm (Republican, Texas)

"The President promised a middle-class tax cut, yet he and his party imposed the largest tax increase in American history. We hope his higher taxes will not cut short the economic recovery and declining interest rates he inherited… Instead of stifling growth through higher taxes and increased government regulations, Republicans would take America in a different direction."
—Sen. Robert Dole (Republican, Kansas)




A big part of the reason tax receipts went up after 2003's tax cuts was also due to the massive spending GWB was doing and racking up huge deficits. As we already pointed out in this thread, revenue for the past 60 years has been a few tenths of a percent within 18.2% of GDP. Similarly, part of the same reason revenue and GDP went up so well under Reagan....deficit spending. To his credit though, Reagan did work to eliminate tax breaks and closed many tax loopholes and tax shelters used by corporate America.

Don't believe me? Argue with the formula for GDP then:

Y = C + I + E + G

where

Y = GDP

C = Consumer Spending

I = Investment made by industry

E = Excess of Exports over Imports

G = Government Spending


So, you see, a VAT tax as you suggest would directly punish consumer spending, thus negatively impacting GDP.

[Schnitzer318is]

^Thank you.

[mrsleeve]

Here is another really good reason to pass this bill ............................................NOT.

SEC. 376. FEDERAL AND STATE IMMUNITY.

(a) Abrogation of State Immunity- A State shall not be immune under the 11th Amendment to the Constitution from a suit brought in a Federal court of competent jurisdiction for a violation of this Act...................

The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State...............

Ohhhh and the best part

) WAIVER- A State’s receipt or use of Federal financial assistance for any program or activity of a State shall constitute a waiver of sovereign immunity, under the 11th Amendment to the Constitution or otherwise, to a suit brought by an employee or applicant for employment of that program or activity under this Act for a remedy authorized under Section 375(c) of this Act [emphasis added].



(2) EFFECTIVE DATE- With respect to a particular program or activity, paragraph (1) applies to conduct occurring on or after the day, after the date of enactment of this Act, on which a State first receives or uses Federal financial assistance for that program or activity.

c) Remedies Against State Officials- An official of a State may be sued in the official capacity of the official by any employee or applicant for employment who has complied with the applicable procedures of this Act, for relief that is authorized under this Act.

(d) Remedies Against the United States and the States- Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, in an action or administrative proceeding against the United States or a State for a violation of this Act, remedies (including remedies at law and in equity) are available for the violation to the same extent as such remedies would be available against a non-governmental entity.

[HarryPotter]

Ycab if u love me pass this bill.

[gwb72tii]

you sound surprised

[bme30]

Because you have to be asleep....

[mrsleeve]

again with the Carlin as some kind of legitimate source of profound thinking on socioeconomic/political theory???? really

[kronus]

why not? being a comedian doesn't automatically make the things he says false.

[gwb72tii]

all good comedy has its roots in truth
but all comedy stretches the truth to be funny
carlin is right on about the media tho