Gas leak exception to the 4th Amendment.

[cale]

What do you guys think is the reasoning for them to go in the homes then if all the shut-off valves are located outside. Do you simply think the cops are going through all this trouble for the possibility of being able to sneak through a few random homes?

[M-technik-3]

Meters for most part in New England are on the exterior of houses. I have one on my garage and one on the house.

[mrsleeve]

What do you guys think is the reasoning for them to go in the homes then if all the shut-off valves are located outside. Do you simply think the cops are going through all this trouble for the possibility of being able to sneak through a few random homes?

Yup its become in many cases an Us Vs. Them mentality with the police and the local Govts that back them and the citiznes that they are supposed to be looking out for. If they can gain access to your property and you have your bong on the table (that you use for tobacco products) well that puts you and your home and watch list, like me maybe some one has guns loaded and in plain sight all around their home, in some places (like east coast commie states) this can be illegal since they say you have to have a trigger lock on them or stored securely (well my house was locked and secure right??? until you illegally broke in that is!!). Well there you go another list, or a "confidential informant" gives the cops a "tip" and you then get raided since you are a public danger with all those dangerous weapons out all over the place. You have 5k dollars sitting on your coffee table for what ever reason, Oh you must be drug king pin and another "confidential informant tip". This kinda thing opens up all kinds of possible ways for broke municipalities to generate income from additional taxes levied or fines and fees, to civil asset forfeitures. Look it up it happens ALL THE DAM TIME cops come in for a domestic or what ever "legitimate reason" and find lots of other things

The list of possibilities can be end less. How about the local assessor finding out you have upgraded you bath, kitchen and finished your basement, now they can charge you more rent so you can keep your home (property taxes) Private property means just fucking that you want in with out my express permission (which I will never ever give) then you better have a warrant and not some vague "suspicion of a crime in progress" to be coming in my house. My house is my castle and I will defend it as such.

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before" - Rham Emanuel 2009 BHO chief of staff. A nearly verbatim quote was uttered by Sectary of state Clinton about the same time.

Kinda fits here now doesn't it?? At a local level a gas main issue/shutdown in December is a serious crisis

[Eecen]

Well that may be true as well, but I would say that while they are doing the job to ensure the contractors are not helping them selves to your shit, the cops are taking stock and looking for anything that can be used against you as well. Since they are there

Conspiracy or not there was no need or justification for ANY ONE especially agents of the govt, to be entering anyone's private property with permission and in direct violation of the 4th amendment.

Mmm, I wasn't looking at it like this.


I'd hate to have someone walk into my wank den. Shit would be awwkward.

[cale]

Yup its become in many cases an Us Vs. Them mentality with the police and the local Govts that back them and the citiznes that they are supposed to be looking out for. If they can gain access to your property and you have your bong on the table (that you use for tobacco products) well that puts you and your home and watch list, like me maybe some one has guns loaded and in plain sight all around their home, in some places (like east coast commie states) this can be illegal since they say you have to have a trigger lock on them or stored securely (well my house was locked and secure right??? until you illegally broke in that is!!). Well there you go another list, or a "confidential informant" gives the cops a "tip" and you then get raided since you are a public danger with all those dangerous weapons out all over the place. You have 5k dollars sitting on your coffee table for what ever reason, Oh you must be drug king pin and another "confidential informant tip". This kinda thing opens up all kinds of possible ways for broke municipalities to generate income from additional taxes levied or fines and fees, to civil asset forfeitures. Look it up it happens ALL THE DAM TIME cops come in for a domestic or what ever "legitimate reason" and find lots of other things

The list of possibilities can be end less. How about the local assessor finding out you have upgraded you bath, kitchen and finished your basement, now they can charge you more rent so you can keep your home (property taxes) Private property means just fucking that you want in with out my express permission (which I will never ever give) then you better have a warrant and not some vague "suspicion of a crime in progress" to be coming in my house. My house is my castle and I will defend it as such.

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before" - Rham Emanuel 2009 BHO chief of staff. A nearly verbatim quote was uttered by Sectary of state Clinton about the same time.

Kinda fits here now doesn't it?? At a local level a gas main issue/shutdown in December is a serious crisis

I think it is hugely speculative and somewhat paranoid induced to think that such a huge operation would be put on by the police simply to gain access to RANDOM homes. This wasn't a pre-screened area, the homes which could possibly be vacant would be totally random and even then if the services could be shut off from the street they would.

Tin-foil hattery at it's finest, you got a loose thread and ran with it IMO.

[mrsleeve]

I think it is hugely speculative and somewhat paranoid induced to think that such a huge operation would be put on by the police simply to gain access to RANDOM homes. This wasn't a pre-screened area, the homes which could possibly be vacant would be totally random and even then if the services could be shut off from the street they would.

Tin-foil hattery at it's finest, you got a loose thread and ran with it IMO.

Look up the Donald Scott case in Malibu, for an extreme example of this.

There is lots of reasoning and evidence from all levels of govt to go along with this mentally. Sobriety, seat belt, Registration and Insurance, Legal status (100 miles from a international boarder) and a host of other "checkpoints" or "targeted enforcement zones" . All used by govt and Law Enforcement to encroach on our rights to privacy by forcing every one that passes though to the scrutiny of law enforcement with no probable cause or laws broken to warrant such activity. Or the TSA and DHS and all the other shit that has come about since the enactment of the Patriot act, and the "war on drugs". Or just getting pulled over by a cop thats just fishing for something and making some BS excuses (like your tail lights aren't bright enough) to pull you over to look for other violations.

The Gas valve issue was nothing more than a perfect situation to set out on a giant fishing expedition, as most people see it as reasonable and for the good of all, because they are ignorant of the world around them or how it works and dont know any better . Even law abiding citizens that other wise have normal lives and looking homes and property might have something going on in their property that is of interest to law enforcement or the tax accessing department of your local govt. That would continue on for who knows how long...

You see this is why it matters that it was not a "pre-screened area" It was just an excuse to go fishing to see what they could come up with for future use under the guise of public safety and you most everyone else will buy it ever time lock, stock, and barrel .

[cale]

Sure it is, start polishing your guns now...get ready for the revolution.

[z31maniac]

Sure it is, start polishing your guns now...get ready for the revolution.

Typical, you don't have a retort, so you attack the messenger.

What's that called again.........................

[mrsleeve]

Sure it is, start polishing your guns now...get ready for the revolution.

I am way ahead of you.


Bury you head in the sand then, just because you cant or refuse to see whats coming does not stop it,.......................it only accelerates is onslaught

[cale]

Typical, you don't have a retort, so you attack the messenger.

What's that called again.........................

I held a conversation, I think he's slightly loopy and is desperate to see conspiracy against him in everything. Make more assumptions about me please.

I am way ahead of you.


Bury you head in the sand then, just because you cant or refuse to see whats coming does not stop it,.......................it only accelerates is onslaught

Right, because police saying they MIGHT enter homes if necessary to prevent gas explosions equates to a police state and a total raping of ones rights. This is journalism for fuck's sakes, do you not think they edited it/left out important bits of the story to make it as edgy as possible? For all you know the statement given did include someone saying "if services could not be shut off from outside", but you've chosen to read it as "cops are going through my sock drawer looking for utility shut-off's".

I may have my head in the sand, but it's not so deep that I can't hear you crying wolf.

[mrsleeve]

Right, because police saying they MIGHT enter homes if necessary to prevent gas explosions equates to a police state and a total raping of ones rights. I may have my head in the sand, but it's not so deep that I can't hear you crying wolf.

Again tell me the motive for, and where the justification for entering my home "to shut off my gas valve" when I am not there and with out my permission came from when the Utility has valves OUTSIDE THE HOUSE just for this very circumstance?? Its not like it was 1 or 2 isolated incidents form a malfunctioning curb stop valve that would require access to the structures main valve on the inside, that could have been handled when the homeowner returned, but it was as many as 800 structures at the time of the authoring of the article

Its a plain and simple Violation of the 4th amendment and one of the core founding principals and circumstances of the USA. There is no other way to construe it.

You can brush it off as oh well, and nothing may come from any of it. But thats not the real danger here. If this goes unchallenged by the property owners there has been a very very dangerous legal precedent set that is a back door end run around the 4th amendment that makes it that much easier for agents of the state to enter your private property at their will, not yours.

[cale]

Do you know there to be no error in the writing of that article, or a misunderstanding by the writer? Given the lack of emphasis on this particular of the topic, I'd say it was just thrown in there....amount of thought given to it, probably limited at best. Do you not think a journalist would LOVE to have the opportunity to write a juicy article on the breach of the 4th amendment vs. an article on gas services? Do you know for sure that all the the buildings were built to code and that the services are all accessible from the outside? You cannot honestly say, and while you make a sound argument that the services should all be accessible from the outside you are not able to say for certain that they are.

This was one small sentence in an article that mentioned briefly at the possibility of police helping workers access homes and you've ran with it, there's no way to argue that you haven't made huge assumptions to validate your speculations here.

[cale]

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_n...or-restoration

Looks like the never went into the homes to begin with, crisis averted...no wolves were found.

I spoke with my gas fitter friend about this too tonight. Not only are some meters found inside the home (google is your friend, it's true) but the proper steps to restoring gas to a large area include purging the lines at which time a full service of someone's system is necessary as the nitrogen used is put through the lines at a much higher pressure potentially damaging valves and appliances which is why a tradesman needs to be present. Kind of contradicts services being back up so I'm still scratching my head, almost like there's more to the story...but wait, where have we heard that before?

Need more info.

There's more to it then

. This is journalism for fuck's sakes, do you not think they edited it/left out important bits of the story to make it as edgy as possible

[mrsleeve]

Your link dose not say that the police DID NOT ENTER to SHUT OFF VALVES, Just that they have not reentered to turn it back on. There is a big and critical difference there, nice try though, I give it a B- for effort. I am not making huge assumptions, I am using my knowledge of years in the business, along with working in proximity to distribution lines for 15 years, coupled with the information disseminated in the article to draw said conclusions. None of which are outrageous or over the top, in regards to the original post, article and industry standards.

Yes they have to purge with N2, but they still cant exceed the Operating standard pressure by more than few percentage points (less than 10% IIRC) They do that to make sure there is no moisture and contamination in the system, and they use N2 as its an inert gas. They do this with the service valves CLOSED this way when you crack the service open you get a slug of N2 1st.

The line is charged and tested if necessary depending on construction methods and materials involved. This is the HIGH pressure your friend was talking about, and the Lateral valves MUST BE CLOSED TO DO SO or you will never make the test. If the repair was made with pre-tested pipe/materials then all that is needed is a x-ray or UT scan of the welds or fusion bonding (if its plastic) along with a N2 purge at standard pressures to remove the moisture and atmospheric gases that may be in the system with N2. Then NG is pushed in to purge out the N2. this will still leave some trapped in the services laterals that will come out when a tech restarts the home at normal operating pressures .

I have never said there was not meters inside home's, that is a possibility, but there still has to be a curb stop or other in line valve to allow the utility to shut the service down with out entering the home. You know if you dont pay your bill they have a way to shut you off. I am home for the holidays so I dont have my copy of the NFPA-54 as its in my work truck. So I cant quote you section, paragraph and Pg number for the portion of the code that address the need for a mandatory outside shut off but I assure you its in there, and has been for a very very long time.


Full Disclosure
I dont work Distribution side all that much, I work mostly on the transmission/production/gathering portions of the industry. I worked for years installing water and sewer systems and have cut my share of gas services and low to medium pressure distribution mains, this is something I know just a little bit about.

[cale]

Your work gives you special knowledge as to the reasoning for cops potentially entering homes and their intentions of simply using it as a method of illegal searches and violating your rights? Quite the line of work, I was not aware tradesmen specialized in busting conspiring cops.