Calling all atheists, new-age, against the norm thinkers

[Turf1600]

Did you post this?

Do not respond to a fraction of my post. Respond to the entire thing. You are trying to derail the converation with semantics and I don't even think you know what point you're trying to make.

If our dialogue doesn't become meaningful pretty quickly I'm going to disengage. I don't think you have good intentions.

[Turf1600]

That's an interesting false binary you've constructed there.

I'm glad you think so.

[smooth]

Do not respond to a fraction of my post. Respond to the entire thing. You are trying to derail the converation with semantics and I don't even think you know what point you're trying to make.

I've made my point several times as clearly as possible. I'll restate it for you.

Those of you challenging theists for depending on other's belief structure for their worldview are performing the same error when you hinge your decisions on the beliefs and/or happiness of others around you.

When I brought this up the best response so far is that you find it difficult to shed yourself of the context within which you developed.

[Turf1600]

I've made my point several times as clearly as possible. I'll restate it for you.

Those of you challenging theists for depending on other's belief structure for their worldview are performing the same error when you hinge your decisions on the beliefs and/or happiness of others around you.

When I brought this up the best response so far is that you find it difficult to shed yourself of the context within which you developed.

I fail to see the error in this. Can you please suggest an alternative? I also don't know how you believe that those two ideas are related.

Edit: I think I see what your angling at but I'm not sure. If I'm on the right track it may help you to know that you do not have to sacrifice any part of yourself to make others happy. I'm not suggesting that people become aimlessly wandering appeasers.

[slaterd]

slaterd,
Why are you so concerned with making everyone happy?
More to the point, why are you even concerned with the concept of happiness?

i don't care about making anyone happy it was total sarcasm.you are one of those people who argue for the sake of arguing with absolutely no point. People like you are the cause of social decay. I'm done running in circles with someone who just wants to drag shit out. I made my point, you tried making yours but failed at having a solid debate. Good day sir.

[joshh]

Like I said, it's nice to believe that but it's a very limited ideal. What you did was the result of a seemingly quality decision but you have to realize that your circumstance allowed it.

Dude (and I don't start posts with "dude" very often) I could have lost my whole fucking family by leaving. My circumstances were fucked. But I stuck with it because it's the truth. Scientology fooled me for 35 years. But I refused to bow down. And it could still happen if they want to push the issue. My wife still believes and has a ton of Scientology friends. It's still a threat. That's how they roll. Fuck them.

You can always make your own choices. People believe what they want to believe.

And I'm not in any way referring to you leaving Christianity. Just generally.

[Turf1600]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I do believe in quality decision making but no one is in complete control. Ask any kid born in a 3rd world country. What I was trying to suggest earlier is that you probably benefited from educational advantages that allowed informed decision making. This was likely not a result of your actions eventhough you chose to embrace it. There is an equal probability that "you" could have died at birth.

Dude (and I don't start posts with "dude" very often) I could have lost my whole fucking family by leaving. My circumstances were fucked. But I stuck with it because it's the truth. Scientology fooled me for 35 years. But I refused to bow down. And it could still happen if they want to push the issue. My wife still believes and has a ton of Scientology friends. It's still a threat. That's how they roll. Fuck them.

You can always make your own choices. People believe what they want to believe.

And I'm not in any way referring to you leaving Christianity. Just generally.

[a3ternus]

what?

lol dude.

no.

just no.

how about, death is the absolute end so we have to make this life everything we can? because when it ends, that's it. and we should all hope that when we die, we dont die with regrets of a life unfulfilled.

This.

[joshh]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I do believe in quality decision making but no one is in complete control. Ask any kid born in a 3rd world country. What I was trying to suggest earlier is that you probably benefited from educational advantages that allowed informed decision making. This was likely not a result of your actions eventhough you chose to embrace it. There is an equal probability that "you" could have died at birth.

We agree on that idea. You're sent on a path and you travel down that path. Whether you like it or not....for a while.
What I'm trying to tell you is that at any point you can change that path by choice. At some age or point in your life. No one is in total control of everything around them. But you can change where you're headed and even change your thinking. It's not always by circumstance. And can be by choice.

[Turf1600]

We agree on that idea. You're sent on a path and you travel down that path. Whether you like it or not....for a while.
What I'm trying to tell you is that at any point you can change that path by choice. At some age or point in your life. No one is in total control of everything around them. But you can change where you're headed and even change your thinking. It's not always by circumstance. And can be by choice.

I guess I'm saying that circumstance will drive your decisions. This is why we can only rely on real-time, quality decision making.

[smooth]

I fail to see the error in this. Can you please suggest an alternative? I also don't know how you believe that those two ideas are related.

Edit: I think I see what your angling at but I'm not sure. If I'm on the right track it may help you to know that you do not have to sacrifice any part of yourself to make others happy. I'm not suggesting that people become aimlessly wandering appeasers.

If you have a chance to re-read my posts I think you'll find that I mentioned earlier that a lot of what people are criticizing theists for is more appropriately leveled at ideologues. From your most recent posts I suspect you'd agree that ideologues can come in any flavor, it's not something specific to theism nor does religion (christian or otherwise) necessarily demand it.

If the criticism of religious people is that they can't or won't think for themselves, how does atheism resolve that if the people purporting to be atheists in this thread are arguing that one should govern something as simple as spelling by their conception of who it might or might not offend?

This issue of whether happiness is important or to what extent one should maximize one's happiness at the expense of others isn't trolling, it's something that people have been trying to make sense of for as long as we have record of human thoughts.

If the criticism of religious people is that they source their understanding on external authority, then atheists who derive their conceptions of whether happiness is good, whether selfishness is bad, or even if good vs. bad is how the universe operates, from external sources (be them family, friends, or community) have to produce evidence for their sources being more valid than religious communities.

[joshh]

I guess I'm saying that circumstance will drive your decisions. This is why we can only rely on real-time, quality decision making.

That's kind of the problem with making a choice to change something. Because it may not be the best all around decision at times. But that all depends on if being a slave to something for the sake of safety/comfort/security is worth it. In my case I was willing to lose my family because I wasn't going to suck Scientology cock anymore. I was in tears just thinking about it (literally). But I refused to let a vile organization keep controlling me.
The choice is always there. No matter how tough it may be.

[Turf1600]

If you have a chance to re-read my posts I think you'll find that I mentioned earlier that a lot of what people are criticizing theists for is more appropriately leveled at ideologues. From your most recent posts I suspect you'd agree that ideologues can come in any flavor, it's not something specific to theism nor does religion (christian or otherwise) necessarily demand it.

If the criticism of religious people is that they can't or won't think for themselves, how does atheism resolve that if the people purporting to be atheists in this thread are arguing that one should govern something as simple as spelling by their conception of who it might or might not offend?

This issue of whether happiness is important or to what extent one should maximize one's happiness at the expense of others isn't trolling, it's something that people have been trying to make sense of for as long as we have record of human thoughts.

If the criticism of religious people is that they source their understanding on external authority, then atheists who derive their conceptions of whether happiness is good, whether selfishness is bad, or even if good vs. bad is how the universe operates, from external sources (be them family, friends, or community) have to produce evidence for their sources being more valid than religious communities.

First of all, I don't criticize the religious. I just don't believe in God. Also, your point still makes no sense. Coming to your own conclusions and then finding that they are in line with conventionally accepted social behavior isn't conformity. Though my moral barometer is a result of my life experiences it does not waver. I am commited to what I have determined to be appropriate action regardless of what anyone thinks at this point. If I can sleep at night knowing that I did the best that I could and that I didn't intentionally cause harm then I am at peace. If I engage in unethical behavior then it weighs on me heavily because I am very empathetic and sensitive to the importance of the human experience. I may have a bit of a unique perspective as a result of my job. I work at a level one trauma center and am exposed to some humbling stuff on a daily basis.

Either way, you are trying to make this a very polarized scenario and I don't like it. That said, I'm not going to go in circles with you anymore. I agree to disagree.

[tjts1]

Do you find it interesting that my post creating an formulation of understanding of how "faith" in a deity could be reached individualistically is the one that has garnered so much attention and backlash from the atheists claiming to be unencumbered by external dictums? I already stated that I do.

No I don't find it interesting at all. In fact I find it laughable that most people including yourself hop on board to whatever the dominant religion is in your culture then extrapolate from that you are better off worship this god because its a win win situation for you. By your own admission, you ignore the possibility that despite your best efforts, you might be worshiping the wrong god.
You know you've been brainwashed and I doubt you'll ever have the strength to admit it. Then again, stranger things have happened.

[smooth]

First of all, I don't criticize the religious. I just don't believe in God. Also, your point still makes no sense. Coming to your own conclusions and then finding that they are in line with conventionally accepted social behavior isn't conformity. Though my moral barometer is a result of my life experiences it does not waver. I am commited to what I have determined to be appropriate action regardless of what anyone thinks at this point. If I can sleep at night knowing that I did the best that I could and that I didn't intentionally cause harm then I am at peace. If I engage in unethical behavior then it weighs on me heavily because I am very empathetic and sensitive to the importance of the human experience.

You are trying to make this a very polarized scenario and I don't like it. That said, I'm not going to go in circles with you anymore. I agree to disagree.

Turf1600,
To my knowledge you did not criticize religious people on the basis of an unwillingness or inability to think for themselves. I made note of it and have been careful not to specifically include you with those who have done so.

If you re-read my posts I think you'll find that I never accused you of making that error. Notice that I never accused "atheists" of making that error, either. I did, however, point out that ideologues routinely make that error.

I am not the one making this discussion a polarized discussion--that's the result of the ideologues. I've been on the receiving end of a string of accusations, assumptions, accused of being unable to read and comprehend, sworn at, and a range of other fairly disturbing comments coming from people claiming that the reason they spell god with a capital letter is because they want to respect others and maximize happiness.


The bottom line as I understand it from this thread so far is that at least some people claiming to be atheists are really only in that camp because they are ideologues and feel that atheism gives them community to launch their antagonism at religious people from what they feel is safety.

But I ask you, is that the basis of atheism? I do not think so nor do any thoughtful atheists that I personally know. It's not surprising to me, therefore, that your posts are sometimes abrasive to those ideologues. They haven't adequately thought their positions out and it's alarming when someone merely questions them on it. I didn't accuse or challenge anyone unless questions constitute challenge.

For the record, you placed yourself on the opposite of my perspective not me.

No I don't find it interesting at all. In fact I find it laughable that most people including yourself hop on board to whatever the dominant religion is in your culture then extrapolate from that you are better off worship this god because its a win win situation for you. By your own admission, you ignore the possibility that despite your best efforts, you might be worshiping the wrong god.
You know you've been brainwashed and I doubt you'll ever have the strength to admit it. Then again, stranger things have happened.

I suggest you re-read my posts and revise your opinions because you couldn't be further from the truth.