Fat people Not responsible.

[joshh]

So just like I suggested - you're implying that health insurance should only cover illnesses that stem from genetic facotrs, right? That would rule out all trauma, most cardiovascular disease, arguably cancer, drug related issues, STDs and pregnancy because they are the result of personal decisions. None of those things should be covered by health insurance because they drive up the cost for "responsible" policy holders and/or tax payers. Am I understanding you correctly?

Insurance includes risk. While we pay *too much* for insurance. That's part of the system. Being that healthcare is a commodity you pay for that risk. If other policy holders were more responsible we would see a fall in prices. It is a broken system in many respects.
If you want to talk Constitutionality of spending tax payer money on charity/benevolence/freebies that's clear cut. And that's what I'm referring to. The difference is insurance is not paid for by the tax payer, not yet. But I do have a problem either way paying for other people's bad choices in life. Including my insurance prices.

You started by stating that a poor person is fat because all they have to eat is poor quality food (I didn't totally agree with that). You also stated that a person that has insurance can hit a tree and be covered by his insurance, *is that fair*. Because the guy that has insurance pays for it. It's as simple as that. Yes there are problems with our healthcare industry. Many of them.

[Turf1600]

That's exactly my point. We shouldn't be.

So just like I suggested - you're implying that health insurance should only cover illnesses that stem from genetic facotrs, right? That would rule out all trauma, most cardiovascular disease, arguably cancer, drug related issues, STDs and pregnancy because they are the result of personal decisions. None of those things should be covered by health insurance because they drive up the cost for "responsible" policy holders and/or tax payers. Am I understanding you correctly?

[joshh]

But we're held responsible for people who take other risks? Like I said, where do you draw the line?

That's exactly my point. We shouldn't be.

[Turf1600]

More importantly, why should the rest of us be held responsible for that persons choices?

But we're held responsible for people who take other risks? Like I said, where do you draw the line?

[joshh]

In no way does that answer any of my questions. It's just your observations on the poor. Still, I think we agree that the odds are stacked against the poor in terms of food selection.

Let's go back to the first question. Should I have to pay more if I get t-boned by a drunk driver because I know the risks of driving? If the concern that people have is that they are going to pay higher premiums to help cover the irresponsibility of others then where do you draw the line?

No that's not what I said. Being poor does not give you a pass for being a fat fuck.
More importantly, why should the rest of us be held responsible for that persons choices?

[Turf1600]

Income level has everything to do with personal responsibility. So does intention and determination. I'm from a poor family. I saw first hand what happens. Parents that have four kids, unable to save because of it, unwilling to move up to a better job and work for it, they get stuck in a rut and work hard to stay there.
People look at the poor and see the condition not how they got there. Oh poor them! Then you find out most of them are there because they don't want to do the work to get themselves out of that condition. While the government pays for their stay in said condition. People also like to ignore that people in general become lazy the more you give them a free ride. No wonder we have so many poor people.

In no way does that answer any of my questions. It's just your observations on the poor. Still, I think we agree that the odds are stacked against the poor in terms of food selection.

Let's go back to the first question. Should I have to pay more if I get t-boned by a drunk driver because I know the risks of driving? If the concern that people have is that they are going to pay higher premiums to help cover the irresponsibility of others then where do you draw the line?

[joshh]

1. I have no idea
2. So is this a matter of personal responsibility or income level? Are the wealthy granted amnesty? Can you not work hard and still be poor? Are the odds of financial success really even at birth? Is one job more valuable than another? How do you define value?
3. Me? 1
4. Is that what's happening? I don't know.

My point is that you can't argue that people need to be responsible for their actions and then go back and layer on exceptions where it's convenient.

Income level has everything to do with personal responsibility. So does intention and determination. I'm from a poor family. I saw first hand what happens. Parents that have four kids, unable to save because of it, unwilling to move up to a better job and work for it, they get stuck in a rut and work hard to stay there.
People look at the poor and see the condition not how they got there. Oh poor them! Then you find out most of them are there because they don't want to do the work to get themselves out of that condition. While the government pays for their stay in said condition. People also like to ignore that people in general become lazy the more you give them a free ride. No wonder we have so many poor people.

[Kershaw]

obviously, if your poor you didnt work hard enough.

[Turf1600]

How many cell phones does that poor family have between them?

How is that not fair if the guy that hits the tree works his ass off to afford insurance?

How many of those bacon cheese burgers do you need before you're full? Individually of course.

Where I agree with you is that poor quality food is cheaper. Does that justify a fatty pounding down 15 dollars worth of bacon cheese burgers a day and then complaining that the food quality sucks?

It isn't that hard to fit in good food once in a while, while keeping calories down. Which means you don't have to be a fatty because you don't eat the best food all the time. That in and of itself would make you healthier than fatty.

1. I have no idea
2. So is this a matter of personal responsibility or income level? Are the wealthy granted amnesty? Can you not work hard and still be poor? Are the odds of financial success really even at birth? Is one job more valuable than another? How do you define value?
3. Me? 1
4. Is that what's happening? I don't know.

My point is that you can't argue that people need to be responsible for their actions and then go back and layer on exceptions where it's convenient.

[joshh]

Is that sarcasm? I can't tell.

Since we're talking about genetics vs choice - how come no one has brought up the fact that we are genetically coded to crave the rarest naturally occuring foods? It just so happens that those foods are sweets, fats and salty foods. Cheese contains a sedative. Sugars are an upper. The list goes on....but the fact remains that these things aren't supposed to be readily available. To make matters worse, our government has made these items cheaper than quality foods. Example - the other day I paid 8.99 per pound for raw cashews. That's 9 bacon cheeseburgers. What are you going to choose when you're poor and have a family to feed? The fact of the matter is that every meal is a financial decision for poor families. Meanwhile, Mr. personal responsibility hits a tree on a skiing trip and it's covered by his PPO. Is that fair?

How many cell phones does that poor family have between them?

How is that not fair if the guy that hits the tree works his ass off to afford insurance?

How many of those bacon cheese burgers do you need before you're full? Individually of course.

Where I agree with you is that poor quality food is cheaper. Does that justify a fatty pounding down 15 dollars worth of bacon cheese burgers a day and then complaining that the food quality sucks?

It isn't that hard to fit in good food once in a while, while keeping calories down. Which means you don't have to be a fatty because you don't eat the best food all the time. That in and of itself would make you healthier than fatty.

[CHIF8008]

"what!? i didn't have any corn"

[Turf1600]

No, I know you work in the math/numbers side of things in Healthcare, right?

Yes, I do - at the busiest level 1 trauma center in the US. I will argue that the children here aren't always in control of what happens to them, though.

[Farbin Kaiber]

No, I know you work in the math/numbers side of things in Healthcare, right?

[Turf1600]

I put a lot of value in what Turf says in regard to this topic.

Is that sarcasm? I can't tell.

Since we're talking about genetics vs choice - how come no one has brought up the fact that we are genetically coded to crave the rarest naturally occuring foods? It just so happens that those foods are sweets, fats and salty foods. Cheese contains a sedative. Sugars are an upper. The list goes on....but the fact remains that these things aren't supposed to be readily available. To make matters worse, our government has made these items cheaper than quality foods. Example - the other day I paid 8.99 per pound for raw cashews. That's 9 bacon cheeseburgers. What are you going to choose when you're poor and have a family to feed? The fact of the matter is that every meal is a financial decision for poor families. Meanwhile, Mr. personal responsibility hits a tree on a skiing trip and it's covered by his PPO. Is that fair?

[Farbin Kaiber]

I put a lot of value in what Turf says in regard to this topic.