Everyone is scared, everyone has guns.

[cale]

I really don't think you're reading exactly what I'm saying. It's not stupid to say that more variables introduce more problems. I'm not blaming it on population, just that it is a contributing factor. If you want to go per capita, going off of the a per 100,000 people. Many countries with much lower populations than Canada and the US have much higher firearm homicide rates. Countries that are developed. Countries such as Brazil, Mexico, and Jamaica. While having a much lower gun ownership rate. Which brings up my original point earlier in this thread that "saying it doesn't happen elsewhere is naive."

Brazil, Mexico and Jamaica are all third world countries, they are by no means developed.

Gun ownership rate has shown absolutely no correlation to homicide by said gun, globally.

And, the simple fact of the matter is. There are 300,000,000 guns in the US. And in 2009, there were 11,493 firearm related homicides. Yes, gun ownership is higher. Yes, we have some more firearm related homicides. But it is in no way correlated to gun ownership.

I disagree with you 100%, and depending on who your source is many experts do as well.

Ummm You cant blame the inanimate fucking object.

I'm not blaming the gun, I'm blaming those who make the inanimate object accessible quite readily.

As to the tool vs law debate portion of the argument. You cant drive a car in the US until you are 16 (in general) why is that. Same reason you cant have cant drink until your 21 (in general and who follows those laws bad example shame on me) or buy a hand gun until your 21 (in general). It has been thought practical and prudent by the legislature and society that you should be of a certain age (where in general you have a level of maturity which is a debate for a totally different thread) and understanding about what you are doing and the responsibility of certain actions.

A vehicles function is to move you and objects from A to B, misuse of that vehicle can result in injury yes..but that is a risk associated with using it. Injury is by no means the intent. The same is true with alcohol, it is not intended to harm an individual.

A firearms sole purpose is to wound or kill living things, every time it is used is with the intent to do damage or to practice doing damage. Death is not a byproduct of the use of a firearm, it is the achievement of the intended design. I'm not going to tell you they are the same as a car/hammer/booze/stick because you're never going to agree. I think your vision of what they really are is clouded by the casual approach people have towards guns in America. You may be responsible and respectful sure, but they're still an everyday object to you. It's this casual approach that the OP started this thread for in the first place I believe.

[mrsleeve]

Ummm You cant blame the inanimate fucking object. I can sit your ass down in chair at my kitchen table take any weapon in my house, load it, chamber a round Cock it take the disengage the safety and set it on the table pointing at your chest and walk away and you WILL NOT DIE. (not that I would ever think of doing this though) You could take every meal and sit there for the rest of you days in front of that loaded and cocked weapon and it will not kill you, you will die of old age before it kills you. You children and their childminder could continue on with you legacy and sit in the same chair for the next hundred year and none of them will die of a gun shot wound from that weapon sitting on the table.

I also never said our laws dont work, they do, they make it harder for people who are not supposed to have weapons to get them. Is it a 100% fool proof system NO, but name me something that is please? Its not that I am saying fuck it to give up, I am saying there is enough laws lets enforce the one we have better, before we try fixing things with more laws that will not effect the motives and abilities of those that will break the laws anyway. Guns are already banned on all school grounds and most universities, since there is a law why do people keep going into such places with them, that law should stop them right??? No all those laws do is STOP ME and those like me that are law abiding citizens.

As to the tool vs law debate portion of the argument. You cant drive a car in the US until you are 16 (in general) why is that. Same reason you cant have cant drink until your 21 (in general and who follows those laws bad example shame on me) or buy a hand gun until your 21 (in general). It has been thought practical and prudent by the legislature and society that you should be of a certain age (where in general you have a level of maturity which is a debate for a totally different thread) and understanding about what you are doing and the responsibility of certain actions.

Would I hand my 11 year old a nail gun sure I would, but under my direct supervision, just the same as I would do with nearly any firearm I own. Would I allow them to use any one of my dangerous power tools, sure I would if they wanted and ask to and under my direct supervision only.

Its hard to have a debate about the population and the crime rate in this country. Yes we have lots of criminals that get into shoot outs with each other. That really is the bulk of gun crime. But when you federal govt and chief LE agency is forcing dealers to make illegal sales to known criminals and allowing those sales to walk back into Mexico and confiscating air-soft guns and tossing owners of malfunction AR's into prison shows a lack of priorities on the part of LE on this.

[VinniE30]

"Texas School District Will Let Teachers Carry Guns"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html

haha this is pretty awesome. Good for them. A complete 180 from all the people wanting more laws now after this shooting.

[TurboJake]

It was stupid that comparing populations is done so via per capita?

Thanks to both of you for showing how well you've thought this through.


For the sake of the argument I'll concede that a much larger population does increase variables. However for most things the ratio's stay the same, the numbers are just bigger. This is not the case of gun violence, it is much more common in the US than other countries. It cannot be blamed on population, it's entirely because of how common guns are.

I really don't think you're reading exactly what I'm saying. It's not stupid to say that more variables introduce more problems. I'm not blaming it on population, just that it is a contributing factor. If you want to go per capita, going off of the a per 100,000 people. Many countries with much lower populations than Canada and the US have much higher firearm homicide rates. Countries that are developed. Countries such as Brazil, Mexico, and Jamaica. While having a much lower gun ownership rate. Which brings up my original point earlier in this thread that "saying it doesn't happen elsewhere is naive."

The ratio is not equal across the board globally. At all. Period.

What other contributing factors are there? Like I said, parenting and stimuli during formative years, media sensationalism, society's lack of accountability, money, prejudice/racism, power, the list goes on. Mostly things that prey on human nature.

Gun ownership rate has shown absolutely no correlation to homicide by said gun, globally.

And, the simple fact of the matter is. There are 300,000,000 guns in the US. And in 2009, there were 11,493 firearm related homicides. Yes, gun ownership is higher. Yes, we have some more firearm related homicides. But it is in no way correlated to gun ownership.

Sources:

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#general

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

[cale]

It was stupid that comparing populations is done so via per capita?

Thanks to both of you for showing how well you've thought this through.

Well, for one. Population will be a largely contributing factor. With more people comes more possibilities. Just like a machine, more parts put in means more parts to go bad.

According to Google.

Population of Canada: 34,482,779 as of 2011
Population of US: 311,591,917 as of Jul 2011

And I will also postulate that it's society as a whole. Which boils down to all stimuli that a child receives in their formative years.
It all starts with parenting.

For the sake of the argument I'll concede that a much larger population does increase variables. However for most things the ratio's stay the same, the numbers are just bigger. This is not the case of gun violence, it is much more common in the US than other countries. It cannot be blamed on population, it's entirely because of how common guns are.

[Farbin Kaiber]

^Be careful, I got into some stupid statistical percentage bullshit from relating differences in population.

[TurboJake]

It's true we do, so why is it that gun crime is so different between us then?

Well, for one. Population will be a largely contributing factor. With more people comes more possibilities. Just like a machine, more parts put in means more parts to go bad.

According to Google.

Population of Canada: 34,482,779 as of 2011
Population of US: 311,591,917 as of Jul 2011

And I will also postulate that it's society as a whole. Which boils down to all stimuli that a child receives in their formative years.
It all starts with parenting.

[Farbin Kaiber]

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

[hooken m]

if im a buyer and seller wanted me to meet him at a police station parking lot, fuck would i care about. sure it would be a first, but some people can be paranoid or insecure w/e the fuck u wanna call it.

[5Toes]

Im not going to intervene, but this has been an excellent thread so far and I have never thought of it this way before. Thank you

[Mr. Burns]

And Cale....you'll go mute before your point is heard, yet a+ effort.

[Mr. Burns]

And as predicted, some cowboys have made this a pissing contest over "cultures" and what's right and wrong.

I can't negate, or be part of a discussion that is so fueled with rhetoric, and falsified "Joe Blow ccw permitted heroism" it's pointless on my part to continue.

Good luck with whatever is going on in whatever city you live in. You're right, the rest on the living universe is wrong.

Unreal some of you guys honestly man...

[cale]

Next you have dual citizen ship. If the US gun culture scares you so much, then go live in Canada. They have guns there too you know........

It's true we do, so why is it that gun crime is so different between us then?

[cale]

Excellent job at relying on highly publicized cases to prove a point, the media has you scared into the position they want you apparently. How many gun crimes occur every year? It's the sum of those crimes which cause the biggest impact to society, and it's those instances which are resolvable.

My point is guns should be reserved for utilitarian functions, and that one would not have a significant need for AR's and handguns in everyday life if they were not so common place. Sleeve has a CCW, does he have it simply because he feels safer with it or does he acknowledge that guns are so commonplace that a hostile interaction is likely to involve a firearm? My guess to his situation but more so to most CCW's is the latter, and if that's the case perhaps what needs addressing is not the impossible task of predicting crime and criminals before they happen but the ability for a criminal to perpetrate the act.

Ok Private Pyle we believe you... keep playing your MW3

Yup, that's definitely it. We train with call of duty in the military now, definitely no hands on experience whatsoever. I find it funny that you dismiss my arguments because of your misplaced assumptions, you're the epitome of ignorant.

Id just like him to answer, why in America in cities with the strictest gun laws (outright ban on firearms) have the highest gun crime rates in America?

Because your society holds guns as holy objects and they're as common as vehicles are. Your population as a whole refuses to give them up for fear of other firearms being used against them, so instead of finding a solution you dig in deeper, buy more guns and are shocked when gun crime occurs. You voluntarily allow the situation to get worse, strict gun laws need to exist coast to coast and people actually need to comply to see changes. But no one wants to, they all want their guns.

Enjoy the situation you've created for yourself, needing to carry around a firearm in everyday life because of the shit storm you've added to. It all boils down to what the OP was getting at, guns are now casually thought of as a solution to a problem which exists solely because of the prevalence of guns! You're trying to fight fire with fire, at the end of the day something is still burning. One need only look at where the guns used in most crimes come from, they are purchased originally with the best intentions. Legal purchases and ownership spiral into criminal use.

[Vedubin01]

Why, because I don't agree with you? Get off your fucking high horse you misinformed twat. I'm the liberal west coast hippy who could probably do a field strip and reassembly quicker than most AR owners, you don't know me personally so stick to the goddamn topic.

Ok Private Pyle we believe you... keep playing your MW3

it's silly to say "hunting rifles are OK" and "assault weapons should be banned".

Its his lack of gun knowledge. Maybe some should watch this and learn something.




Id just like him to answer, why in America in cities with the strictest gun laws (outright ban on firearms) have the highest gun crime rates in America?