Another thing Sleeve and I probably agree on...

[Dozyproductions]

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told

[Farbin Kaiber]

To be honest, I'd like to have seen an escrow account holding ALL the grazing fees due since 1993 that the Cliven Bundy & Co. have been stuffing away. At least that would show the action of placing the money as a sign of good faith that they truly did/do intend to pay their fees to either the State of Nevada, or Clark County as they claim. Otherwise, I do see a bit of the 'welfare rancher' or freeloader context actually sticking.

[CorvallisBMW]

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-...not-being-told

If that's true, it would be a revelation. A super fucked-up one too. And frankly I wouldn't past anyone in Congress to try something just like that.

[einhander]

I see is guy who refused to pay is taxes or fees for 20 years, has ignored court orders, has broken and continues to break the law, and a bunch of "patriots" coming to support him in his efforts to ignore and undermine the laws of the very country they claim to love and support.

I hope they throw the fucktard in jail. Why should I have to pay taxes but not him? If he's going to use public land for personal profit, he should be paying for it. Simple as that. If he's refusing to abide by the law and the courts, he should have his assets seized and be put in prison. No one should be above the law just because they have a bunch of gun-toting buddies on horses.

This sets up a very dangerous precedent. It says that if you've got enough crazy fucking gun buddies, you don't have to obey the law. Just round up all your friends, point your guns at the government and you can ignore the law all you want.

We have laws for a reason, and without them we're nothing but a failed state. There's no reason whatsoever that this guy shouldn't have to abide by the same laws that you, I, or anyone else would have to in the same situation. Fuck him. Don't like the law? Call your senator. Call your congressman, Vote, Move, I don't care what you do, but it's the law. You don't get to just ignore it for 20 years and profit off the public's assets, then threaten to kill dozens, if not hundreds, of people to keep it that way.

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

[mrsleeve]

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

then you must like to go hungry then, I am fairly sure its kinda hard to have a job such as yours and tend to growing and raising your ALL of your own food needs, in either hong kong or SoCal.

That and if this is Clark County Owned land, then why are the feds involved anyway??? I have been too busy lately to really keep up with this hence my earlier cornfuzzelment with a similar goings on.

[einhander]

then you must like to go hungry then, I am fairly sure its kinda hard to have a job such as yours and tend to growing and raising your ALL of your own food needs, in either hong kong or SoCal.

That and if this is Clark County Owned land, then why are the feds involved anyway??? I have been too busy lately to really keep up with this hence my earlier cornfuzzelment with a similar goings on.

I buy from the local wet market in HK. I source what I can from organic farms in Japan. In LA I buy from the farmers market: meat and produce anyway.

Big farms are the largest welfare recipients on the planet, keep food prices needlessly high, feed us genetically modified crap, and ensure poverty for millions around the world.

Confuzzlement. I like that. Will use it at work.

[CorvallisBMW]

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

Do you sustain your life off nothing but air? Big Ag or not, all food, even the expensive boutique organic fair-trade stuff, comes from farms and ranches.

I don't think the government was taking his livelihood at all. He had every opportunity, for 20+ years, to simply pull his cattle back on to his own land. He chose not to. Why is anyone surprised by any of this?

If he had been letting his cattle illegally graze on his neighbors land, and that land was privately owned by another rancher, would all these right-wing fanatics still have supported him in his efforts to steal land rights that didn't belong to him?

[einhander]

Do you sustain your life off nothing but air? Big Ag or not, all food, even the expensive boutique organic fair-trade stuff, comes from farms and ranches.

I should have rephrased that: I'm no friend to commercial farms and meat producers.

[frankenbeemer]

If he had been letting his cattle illegally graze on his neighbors land, and that land was privately owned by another rancher, would all these right-wing fanatics still have supported him in his efforts to steal land rights that didn't belong to him?

Yes, if his neighbor was a left wing fanatic who contracted with him then used the enormous resources of the government to abrogate that contract.

[BraveUlysses]

then you must like to go hungry then, I am fairly sure its kinda hard to have a job such as yours and tend to growing and raising your ALL of your own food needs, in either hong kong or SoCal.

That and if this is Clark County Owned land, then why are the feds involved anyway??? I have been too busy lately to really keep up with this hence my earlier cornfuzzelment with a similar goings on.

I dunno, maybe you could just educate yourself on the subject instead of making 3-4 clueless posts in this thread? Maybe I expect too much.

The land is owned and managed by the federal government. Something like 70% of nevada's land is federally owned.

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

They aren't taking his livelihood per se; they are seizing his property and selling it to pay back the fees he owes, which was the result of a court order since he refused to pay his fees.

This man is an idiot who unironically claims he doesn't recognize the federal government's authority and speaks to state's rights, but he's too fucking stupid to have read his state's own constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

[Vedubin01]

his deal is that his family has been raising cattle since the late 1800's. In 1934 the gov. set up the Taylor Grazing act that granted permits for people to use public land to raise cattle.

He is the last Rancher of his kind in the area. All other ranchers have been driven out or bankrupted due the federal government.

His stance is that his family has had claim and the rights to graze that land well before the Taylor act. Grandfathered in... And he is making a stand

[frankenbeemer]

The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

That is fascinating. Written in 1864, I wonder what prompted this prohibition on secession?

[BraveUlysses]

his deal is that his family has been raising cattle since the late 1800's. In 1934 the gov. set up the Taylor Grazing act that granted permits for people to use public land to raise cattle.

He is the last Rancher of his kind in the area. All other ranchers have been driven out or bankrupted due the federal government.

His stance is that his family has had claim and the rights to graze that land well before the Taylor act. Grandfathered in... And he is making a stand

1998 called and it wants you to go read the judgment from the court and report back.

[mrsleeve]

I dunno, maybe you could just educate yourself on the subject instead of making 3-4 clueless posts in this thread? Maybe I expect too much.

The land is owned and managed by the federal government. Something like 70% of nevada's land is federally owned.



They aren't taking his livelihood per se; they are seizing his property and selling it to pay back the fees he owes, which was the result of a court order since he refused to pay his fees.
:

I am aware of how much land the feds own in the west, I live there.

Next I guess you dont understand how much land is necessary to graze 1 cow in that kind of habitat. I have a friend that has a small ranch in NM, he has told me you need at least 50ac PER HEAD on a good damp year and upwards of 100ac PER HEAD in a drought year to sustain you animals. When the feds will not allow grazing on BLM or NFS land or refuse to allow you to renew your permitting (see my link) what are you supposed to do. Yup go bankrupt and lose your lively hood....................

[BraveUlysses]

I am aware of how much land the feds own in the west, I live there.

Next I guess you dont understand how much land is necessary to graze 1 cow in that kind of habitat. I have a friend that has a small ranch in NM, he has told me you need at least 50ac PER HEAD on a good damp year and upwards of 100ac PER HEAD in a drought year to sustain you animals. When the feds will not allow grazing on BLM or NFS land or refuse to allow you to renew your permitting (see my link) what are you supposed to do. Yup go bankrupt and lose your lively hood....................

So you're saying he should have gotten out of the business instead of racking up millions of dollars of unpaid fees? I agree.

Crying to get militia retards to engage in a standoff when the government finally decides to get back some of the money he's been withholding is not a good plan.

I don't care that his family has been working this land for 100+ years, because it's not his land. Furthermore he doesn't want to pay what he's obligated to, has resisted paying it back after courts have judged against him.

I guess it goes to show you and other posters will defend freeloaders.