Seattle raises minimum wage to $15/hr

[G-Man the Visionary]

You think that small businesses are getting squeezed out of existence by incremental, nominal increases of the minimum wage?

Not just wages. Sorry if that was unclear. Taxed, insuranced, etc.

[smooth]

Not just wages. Sorry if that was unclear. Taxed, insuranced, etc.

The problem with your assertion is that small businesses are getting squeezed out of existence by large corporations. Small business owners are supportive of increasing minimum wages, FYI.

In fact, a few people in this thread would benefit from reading the facts rather than relying on what you called "common sense"

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.
Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.


Myth: Small business owners can't afford to pay their workers more, and therefore don't support an increase in the minimum wage.
Not true: A June 2014 survey found that more than 3 out of 5 small business owners support increasing the minimum wage to $10.10. Small business owners believe that a higher minimum wage would benefit business in important ways: 58% say raising the minimum wage would increase consumer purchasing power. 56% say raising the minimum wage would help the economy. In addition, 53% agree that with a higher minimum wage, businesses would benefit from lower employee turnover, increased productivity and customer satisfaction.


Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would hurt restaurants.
Not true: In California, employers are required to pay servers the full minimum wage of $9 per hour - before tips. Even with a recent increase in the minimum wage, the National Restaurant Association projects California restaurant sales will outpace the U.S. average in 2014.


Myth: Raising the federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13 per hour since 1991) would lead to restaurant job losses.
Not true: Employers in San Francisco must pay tipped workers the full minimum wage of $10.74 per hour – before tips. Yet, the San Francisco restaurant industry has experienced positive job growth over the past few years according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for businesses.
Not true: Academic research has shown that higher wages sharply reduce employee turnover which can reduce employment and training costs.


Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
Not true: Since 1938, the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. For more than 75 years, real GDP per capita has steadily increased, even when the minimum wage has been raised.

-- http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

[mrsleeve]

well, you're pretty much wrong on every single point so it's difficult to try and untangle it for you. Suffice to say that there have been numerous studies on the topic, history's verdict is already in, and what you claim would happen (that people lose their jobs when wages go up) is not what actually occurs.

The stuff you point to, about there being less people in those low-wage jobs, isn't due to wages going up. Point in fact, wages have gone *down* but your interpretation of that is missing the forest for the trees apparently

In any case, when wages go up, productivity goes up and turnover decreases ending up with the small business reducing training costs and increasing throughput. We also know that businesses don't cut jobs when wages go up so long as they have demand for their products. Businesses are going to have three people working if they need three people working, regardless of the wages for those three people. Businesses that pay their employees more report more satisfied workers, more productivity, and higher year-end profits. In fact, small, locally owned businesses tend to pay their workers higher than minimum wages already, as anyone here who has actually worked for a local small business can attest to, so these kinds of discussions don't impact them very often at all.

The reason there are less people in those service jobs you're pointing out isn't because wages have gone up, and not only because they've gone down as your graph illustrates, but because those businesses have workers running ragged and have managed to eek out more hours worked per week per worker than the rest of the industrial world.

The businesses you see doing the practices you are describing aren't small, locally owned businesses by and large. They're large corporations, or franchises, and their profits go eastward away from the communities that the dollars are spent inside. Those dollars go into corporate profits, which are at an all time high despite the doom and gloom prognosis of higher wages killing profits and jobs, and they don't tend to come back into the local communities. The larger the corporation, the shittier the pay, the higher the corporate profits, and the public is left taking up the slack in the form of welfare, healthcare, and childcare costs that the part-time, low-wage employees can't pay for themselves.

In any case, this will all be disregarded by the usual suspects in this thread as blather but it's all backed up by actual evidence, research, and history that tends to not match up with what large corporate political donors have to say about the matter...but why listen to reality when it's much easier to eat up whatever those wealthiest people in our country have to say about endangering their wealth. They probably wouldn't lie to protect their own interests, right?

Ahhh yes the mikey moore arguments carry on

[G-Man the Visionary]

The problem with your assertion is that small businesses are getting squeezed out of existence by large corporations. Small business owners are supportive of increasing minimum wages, FYI.

Yes, I believe small business owners would like to pay their valued employees more, and usually do, because they'd rather see them have it than Uncle Sam. Big corps don't care about peeons and then get the tax breaks. You can agree on that, right?

[smooth]

Ahhh yes the mikey moore arguments carry on

wait a minute here, are you saying that the graph you posted illustrating that real wages have gone down came from Michael Moore?

or do you think that real wages going down over time means that businesses are losing money even as their profits go up?

or do you think that large corporations paying their employees minimum wages while small businesses typically pay more is a Michael Moore argument?

or are you just doing your typical ill-thought ad hominem (or what you think passes for one because you think since you dislike Michael Moore it's an insult) when you don't have a proper response after I disassemble your disjointed logical incoherent ramblings?

[smooth]

Yes, I believe small business owners would like to pay their valued employees more, and usually do, because they'd rather see them have it than Uncle Sam. Big corps don't care about peeons and then get the tax breaks. You can agree on that, right?

If you believe that small business owners want to, and often do, pay their employees more than the minimum wage already, why are you posting that raising the minimum wage will threaten small business owners?

[G-Man the Visionary]

Maybe the problem I have is that people accept that wage. I mean, ya, if you have to work and "can't find anything" then you have no choice? Stepping stones, ambition, loyalty, dedication, patience, and financial stability has been replaced by gotta have more, gotta have more, why does he have more than me, gotta have more...

[G-Man the Visionary]

If you believe that small business owners want to, and often do, pay their employees more than the minimum wage already, why are you posting that raising the minimum wage will threaten small business owners?

Nearly doubling the wages will put them out of business, force them to raise prices, or have to lay off valuable hands (if they are only paying everyone minimum which typically isn't the case). BUT, I don't think I necessarily said the wages will threaten the owners.
"It can be raised, just moderately, and in a way that small businesses quit getting squeezed out of existence." - Was meant to imply tax breaks, unforced insurances (scams), and other government fairity that's given to the bigs.

EDIT: I believe you're way more intelligent than I am, and I'm at work, so that's it from me lol.

[smooth]

Three cities with minimum wage laws – San Francisco, Santa Fe and San Jose – offer insights into how local economies and businesses fared after implementation.

San Francisco increased the minimum wage by 26% and Santa Fe increased the minimum wage by 65% over their respective state minimum wages. Two independent studies found that implementation of these wage policies had no discernible effect on employment in the two cities.21

When Santa Fe implemented a 65% wage increase in 2004, from $5.15 per hour to $8.40 per hour, overall employment levels at firms did not change, and employment levels in the city increased compared to Albuquerque, which had a lower wage. Just last year, San Jose implemented a wage increase from $8.00 to $10.00 per hour (a 25% increase).

Despite claims that businesses would flee and cause massive job loss, the opposite occurred. Just one year later, registered businesses in San Jose are up by 3%, and in the retail sector, the number of registered small businesses increased by 19%. Unemployment in San Jose decreased by one percent since the wage hike went into effect, and in the sector most influenced by the wage increase, restaurants and hospitality, more than 4,000 jobs were created.22

There are key explanations why local businesses and employment thrive when minimum wages are increased. The first reason may be the increased buying power of a large share of the workforce. When more money is in the pockets of earners at the lowest wages, they are more likely to spend it at local businesses. For example – households with incomes in the $30,000 to $39,999 range spend 106% of their pre-tax income. In contrast – households with incomes over $70,000 (the median income in King County is roughly $72,000), spend only 63% of their pre-tax income.23 Table 6 illustrates how increased buying power resulting from boosting low-wage households can be seen in their spending at restaurants. When households at lower wages ($15,000 - $19,999 per year) move to more livable wages ($30,000 - $39,000 per year), their spending at restaurants increases by nearly 45%.24 More local economic stimulus occurs when money is in the pockets of lower-income workers than when it is in the pockets of higher income earners or stockholders.

Another reason there is little evidence of employment dropping after minimum wage increases is because many employers choose to adjust to minimum wage increases through wide and varied strategies, or “channels of adjustment.” A recent (2013) paper by John Schmitt at the Center for Economic Policy Research provides a thorough overview of this research, which we discussed in depth in our previous report, Economic Impact of a Living Wage for Transportation and Hospitality workers in the City of SeaTac.26

We’ll summarize these options below:
Price Increases: In our previous study of the effects of Proposition 1 (the $15 minimum wage in SeaTac), we projected that employers absorb the new costs through marginal price increases. With an immediate jump to $15 per hour written into the initiative, we estimated that prices could soon increase between .5% and 1.5%.27 Shortly after Proposition 1 was implemented, parking lots implemented a .50 cent service charge to cover increased labor costs, reflecting a price increase of roughly 1%.28

Savings from Reduced Turnover: Employee turnover for jobs paying less than $30,000 a year typically cost an employer 16% of an employee’s annual salary.29 The relationship between wages and turnover can be seen in the often-made comparison of Sam’s Club and Costco. Costco’s wages are 40% higher than at Sam’s Club. However, turnover at these two retail giants are 17% and 44% respectively, resulting in cost savings for Costco.

Increase Productivity: With higher wages, employers may expect increased productivity. A survey of employers after implementation of San Francisco Airport’s living wage policy revealed that many firms experienced performance improvements, with no significant changes in staffing after the living wage was implemented.30

-- http://www.pugetsoundsage.org/downloads/Economic%20and%20Equity%20Outcomes%20of%20a%20$15% 20Minimum%20Wage%20in%20Seattle_1.pdf

[BraveUlysses]

Nearly doubling the wages will put them out of business, force them to raise prices, or have to lay off valuable hands (if they are only paying everyone minimum which typically isn't the case). BUT, I don't think I necessarily said the wages will threaten the owners.
"It can be raised, just moderately, and in a way that small businesses quit getting squeezed out of existence." - Was meant to imply tax breaks, unforced insurances (scams), and other government fairity that's given to the bigs.

EDIT: I believe you're way more intelligent than I am, and I'm at work, so that's it from me lol.

Nobody is doubling wages. Educate yourself before you post.

WA state minimum wage is expected to reach 10/hr by the time Seattle fully implements the 15/hr min wage for all businesses in 2018.

Ahhh yes the mikey moore arguments carry on

great rebuttal

[mrsleeve]

wait a minute here, are you saying that the graph you posted illustrating that real wages have gone down came from Michael Moore?

or do you think that real wages going down over time means that businesses are losing money even as their profits go up?

or do you think that large corporations paying their employees minimum wages while small businesses typically pay more is a Michael Moore argument?

or are you just doing your typical ill-thought ad hominem (or what you think passes for one because you think since you dislike Michael Moore it's an insult) when you don't have a proper response after I disassemble your disjointed logical incoherent ramblings?

Nahhh its more the evil corporations making evil profit thing.

yup smaller outfits tend to pay better, they like to keep good help around. I have worked for small family outfits where I have been at the owners house drinking beer and eating his food on a random Sunday, or helped him out with personal projects with out compensation as favor. On the flip side I have worked for and do currently for one of the largest international outfits in my industry. I am just as happy now as I was then........ They make lots of money I make lots of money, the more I can make for me the more I make for them. With out the profits they cant buy equipment to bid work, with out profits I dont have employer, I dont have a job, and I cant pay my bills.....

this eat the rich force them to give to others thing is getting rather tiresome from you. Yup real wages and the buying power of that wage has been going down, simple solution, put on your big boy pants, stop whining and go out and make more money. Sometimes we have to fail several times before we find a way too make it, and even then it can all fall apart and have start over. The trick is learning to swallow your pride and do what you have too, to make honest living

this thread sucks again hows your weather??? Its hot muggy and raining where I am

[G-Man the Visionary]

Nobody is "nearly" doubling wages. Educate yourself before you post.

WA state minimum wage is expected to reach 10/hr by the time Seattle fully implements the 15/hr min wage for all businesses in 2018.

lmao... Increase your bills by 50%, I'm sure you'll be way less happy.

[BraveUlysses]

lmao... Increase your bills by 50%, I'm sure you'll be way less happy.

Their bills consist only of labor costs? themoreyouknow.jpg

[The Dark Side of Will]

The businesses you see doing the practices you are describing aren't small, locally owned businesses by and large. They're large corporations, or franchises, and their profits go eastward away from the communities that the dollars are spent inside. Those dollars go into corporate profits, which are at an all time high [...] and they don't tend to come back into the local communities. The larger the corporation, the shittier the pay, the higher the corporate profits, and the public is left taking up the slack in the form of welfare, healthcare, and childcare costs that the part-time, low-wage employees can't pay for themselves.

Yes, I believe small business owners would like to pay their valued employees more, and usually do, because they'd rather see them have it than Uncle Sam. Big corps don't care about peeons and then get the tax breaks. You can agree on that, right?

Tidbit on how the national tax and regulatory structure incentivizes companies to ignore the long term and focus on the short term, and in case even PREVENTS companies from focusing on the long term:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveden...-in-the-world/

It is in the interests of enlightened management to pay workers a wage that satisfies them. Companies don't need government interference in order to do this. What they do need is a lack of government rules making it hard to spend money on the right things.

[LowR3V'in]

This is good for the country. Who lives in seattle?
Raise it to 20bux an hour so we can all see what happens.
Good or bad.