Seattle raises minimum wage to $15/hr

[smooth]

Your ramblings are exhausting.

So let's go ahead and turn this around. What do you feel attributes to success other than hard work and good decisions? Specific examples please.

in my specific example, there was a bit of luck and a whole lot of other people helping me out along the way to me finding my footing back in society

The small business owner who recognized that my talents were being wasted physically laying flooring and asked me to take a desk job doing estimates and materials orders took a chance and ignored the fact that I had a criminal record.

This is in sharp contrast to the small business owner who hired me to be a clerk in his grocery store and, regardless of how hard I worked, constantly treated me like shit because he knew that I would have difficulty finding a job elsewhere.

In fact, his store manager was the wife of the guy who taught me how to install carpet, vinyl, and wood flooring. He was the one who talked the owner of the flooring company into bringing me in for an interview.

So we have one asshole who hired me and exploited the shit out of me regardless of my productivity.

His store manager who said eff that I hate the way this store treats you go talk to my husband.

Her husband teaches me how to lay flooring. Talks to his friend and says there's this smart kid you should talk to him.

The flooring company owner calls me into his office and offers me a desk job at a really nice wage and tells me that my schooling comes first if there's an issue with scheduling.


I could have worked hard forever in that grocer position, or at least until I graduated from college (getting into college was a bit of hail mary but that's a different story altogether), and I wouldn't have become anything remotely close to the level of success I enjoy today. Circumstances outside my control played a larger role in my overall success in the opportunities afforded me.

[einhander]

What do you feel attributes to success other than hard work and good decisions? Specific examples please.

If someone is wealthier than you, does that mean they're harder working and make better decisions?

How are you measuring success?

Your question is ridiculous. Stop asking what people feel.

[jalopi]

Good to hear things worked out for you smooth. But you do realize this slightly reinforces the point, yes?

I'll admit luck had a big part in you finding the connections that got you to where you are now, but if you weren't a hard worker and didn't come across as a reputable person there's no way that dude's wife would've vouched for you. She would've treated you just like most of the other fucks out there who really don't care about how they work (which clearly you made it seem like you cared) and are just there to put in time.

So yeah, worthless people with the "handout" attitude not going anywhere still stands, your story doesn't validate anything (except hard work /good ethic and a good attitude takes you places, that is)

[smooth]

Good to hear things worked out for you smooth. But you do realize this slightly reinforces the point, yes?

I'll admit luck had a big part in you finding the connections that got you to where you are now, but if you weren't a hard worker and didn't come across as a reputable person there's no way that dude's wife would've vouched for you. She would've treated you just like most of the other fucks out there who really don't care about how they work (which clearly you made it seem like you cared) and are just there to put in time.

So yeah, worthless people with the "handout" attitude not going anywhere still stands, your story doesn't validate anything (except hard work /good ethic and a good attitude takes you places, that is)

That's correct and I never said otherwise.

The logical error that people are making in this thread is that the relationship works in the other direction: that if you aren't successful it's because you are lazy and/or don't have a healthy work ethic

That's a logical fallacy called an undistributed middle term. That logic also fits the fallacy of denying the antecedent.

[ParsedOut]

If someone is wealthier than you, does that mean they're harder working and make better decisions?

How are you measuring success?

Your question is ridiculous. Stop asking what people feel.

Wealth == success? I think not. Trust fund kiddies do not work harder than me. I'm talking career success. To answer your question, I believe that if someone is more successful that I that means they have put in the time and effort to get them there as opposed to attributing it all to "luck" or "opportunity".

[ParsedOut]

That's correct and I never said otherwise.

The logical error that people are making in this thread is that the relationship works in the other direction: that if you aren't successful it's because you are lazy and/or don't have a healthy work ethic

That's a logical fallacy called an undistributed middle term. That logic also fits the fallacy of denying the antecedent.

You didn't answer my question BTW. What causes this to be a logical fallacy?

[smooth]

Good to hear things worked out for you smooth. But you do realize this slightly reinforces the point, yes?

It reinforces the point that having a good work ethic can earn you success.

It may even reinforce the point that you can't become successful without a good work ethic.

But it does *not* say anything about the work ethic of people who are not successful.

The people arguing that service workers don't deserve higher wages are arguing from a position that they believe poor people deserve their allotment in life because they haven't worked hard enough to get themselves out of poverty.

People can have a good work ethic and work hard and never get themselves out of poverty.

People can have the best work ethic in the country and still never make it out of a low wage situation.

An excellent work ethic doesn't even guarantee someone a good job.

It's true that I exhibited qualities that someone was wiling to take a chance on. But that doesn't mean if no one had taken a chance on me that I didn't possess those qualities.

Do you see the difference between those two statements and why when people invert their logic that they're making an incorrect leap of logic?

You didn't answer my question BTW. What causes this to be a logical fallacy?

I answered your earlier questions.
I listed two formal logical errors--they aren't subjective. If you don't understand how they are fallacies then educate yourself about formal logical fallacies. You don't pay me and I'm not your professor.

[einhander]

Wealth == success? I think not. Trust fund kiddies do not work harder than me. I'm talking career success. To answer your question, I believe that if someone is more successful that I that means they have put in the time and effort to get them there as opposed to attributing it all to "luck" or "opportunity".

How do you know they don't work harder? If you aren't measuring success by wealth than what does it matter if someone has a trust fund?

Your definition of success is fuzzier than my testicles.

[ParsedOut]

I answered your earlier questions.
I listed two formal logical errors--they aren't subjective. If you don't understand how they are fallacies then educate yourself about formal logical fallacies. You don't pay me and I'm not your professor.

You either don't understand the question or are avoiding it entirely. You can say that hard work and good decisions attribute to success but you fail to list any specific traits that limit it. We've already covered mental disabilities. What else? Surely a phd doesn't believe in "luck"?

[ParsedOut]

How do you know they don't work harder? If you aren't measuring success by wealth than what does it matter if someone has a trust fund?

Your definition of success is fuzzier than my testicles.

Argue semantics much? Success means that you earn a living to support yourself and family without external support or legislation. That's my ball fuzz version based on our current topic. So trust fund kids that sit around and smoke weed all day don't fit the discussion.

[BraveUlysses]

You either don't understand the question or are avoiding it entirely. You can say that hard work and good decisions attribute to success but you fail to list any specific traits that limit it. We've already covered mental disabilities. What else? Surely a phd doesn't believe in "luck"?

I love how you talk about luck as if it's a goddamned unicorn

[ParsedOut]

I love how you talk about luck as if it's a goddamned unicorn

I love how you all talk about luck like it's some unstoppable force. It's about as bad as the pan handlers on the corner with sign that says "All out of luck".

[BraveUlysses]

I love how you all talk about luck like it's some unstoppable force. It's about as bad as the pan handlers on the corner with sign that says "All out of luck".

Can you stick to things that I've actually said? You're clearly the one poster in this thread who feels the need to keep posting about the world 'luck'.

[ParsedOut]

Can you stick to things that I've actually said? You're clearly the one poster in this thread who feels the need to keep posting about the world 'luck'.

I'm trying to get someone to articulate the other factors that they argue exist that keep someone from making more money. The only thing I've heard said is "luck" which is laughable. Get fired from your job? Must be bad luck. The guy next to you that works overtime and shows initiative gets the raise/promotion over you? Must be bad luck. It's a fucking cop out excuse for not picking yourself up and doing something proactive to better your situation.

[einhander]

Argue semantics much? Success means that you earn a living to support yourself and family without external support or legislation. That's my ball fuzz version based on our current topic. So trust fund kids that sit around and smoke weed all day don't fit the discussion.

You're assuming anyone born into wealth is lazy. You can't make that assumption because it isn't true. You also can't assume all rich kids sit around getting stoned all day.

External support or legislation? What do you think ensures that I can't just come along and take your cars or your lawnmower? Property ownership laws....you know...legislation....What do you think ensures that your boss can't make you work 24 hours a day and pay you nothing? Legislation! Yes! Legislation! Oh noes!

You're not making any sense with your weird class warfare slash individual autarky slash working class superiority.