Seattle raises minimum wage to $15/hr

[Todd Black 88]

You people who are against this do know that someone needs to do these jobs, right?

Should they not be able to make a wage they can survive on, buy good healthy food with, and pay their bills with, so you upper middle class folks can have your half calf, skinny, 108*, hazelnut latte?

For fuck sake, you are the same people who are bitching about immigrants taking jobs.....that you don't want.

[nando]

Minimum wage argument... really separates those who study (sound) economics, and those who watch (state-sanctioned) television programming.

You assume we all watch TV. I don't. And unless you go to a top school of economics, you are just learning what the professors are parroting out of a textbook. My major was finance/economics, btw. I really enjoyed it, but you realize how much of what is taught isn't quite true (although useful as tools for thinking about specific issues). And especially since I started teaching, you realize how incompetent many of the teachers sadly are. :(

and sleeve, I know you work hard - but that's only part of it. there's definitely an element of luck. and there are external forces that prevent some people from being able to have opportunities like we had. I know my own career is based a lot on luck, yeah I've worked hard but even the companies we work for are lucky. all the money we earn was basically pumped out of the ground, there's billions of dollars out there you just have to be in the right place. not everyone has that chance. Somebody took a chance on me just like they took a chance on you and it worked out. sometimes it doesn't work out, and sometimes you don't get that chance. this isn't a disney movie where the good guy always wins.

I also know people who've worked for me who were the most worthless employees I've ever seen. I don't think they even deserved minimum wage, yet they made double what I do. Luckily I was able to get rid of them but they are still working for somebody else. I don't think you can equate the belief that people should be able to afford basic food and shelter with thinking lazy people should get free handouts.. because lazy people will find a way to get away with doing nothing no matter what.

[mrsleeve]

You assume we all watch TV. I don't. And unless you go to a top school of economics, you are just learning what the professors are parroting out of a textbook. My major was finance/economics, btw. I really enjoyed it, but you realize how much of what is taught isn't quite true (although useful as tools for thinking about specific issues). And especially since I started teaching, you realize how incompetent many of the teachers sadly are. :(

and sleeve, I know you work hard - but that's only part of it. there's definitely an element of luck. and there are external forces that prevent some people from being able to have opportunities like we had. I know my own career is based a lot on luck, yeah I've worked hard but even the companies we work for are lucky. all the money we earn was basically pumped out of the ground, there's billions of dollars out there you just have to be in the right place. not everyone has that chance. Somebody took a chance on me just like they took a chance on you and it worked out. sometimes it doesn't work out, and sometimes you don't get that chance. this isn't a disney movie where the good guy always wins.

I also know people who've worked for me who were the most worthless employees I've ever seen. I don't think they even deserved minimum wage, yet they made double what I do. Luckily I was able to get rid of them but they are still working for somebody else. I don't think you can equate the belief that people should be able to afford basic food and shelter with thinking lazy people should get free handouts.. because lazy people will find a way to get away with doing nothing no matter what.

Its not that I dont disagree in totality with any of this. Yes you know as well as I do in our industry that are worthless un/under qualified people in positions they should not be in at all because they know someone more important than we do.

I agree Hard work is not the only factor (dont think I have said that is was), just the most important one. Far too many people put too many conditions on what they want out of their job and what they are willing to do. This limits the opportunities available to them in general, and if there are not many higher paying opportunities they are qualified for, with out self imposed "deal breaker" conditions this limits them to lower paying, lower skill, lower responsibility positions that still fall with in their personal guidelines. This is not your fault. my fault or the fault of the govt, thus needing its intervention to try and artificially insulate them form their own choices.

Luck is a subjective term in my eyes. Luck is the by product of what you do and how you handle almost any situation you may find your self. What might consider to be lucky for me might be Ehhh to you, and Vice Versa. Life is what you make of it and in my experience once you stop waiting for life to come to you and go out and try take it by the horns is when you start to see your "luck" being more favorable. Life is NOT FAIR, its up to you even up your own odds and make it fair for you.

[einhander]

This is not your fault. my fault or the fault of the govt, thus needing its intervention to try and artificially insulate them form their own choices.

You're assuming the government is acting out of altruism or to level the playing field - it isn't.

It's to maintain credibility among constituents.

So we can argue the pros and cons from an "economic" angle (if you can call it that), but at the end of the day it is a political issue. As long as you have sizable numbers of people voting for those who want to "intervene" then you're going to have issues like it. It isn't going anywhere.

[mrsleeve]

along that line of the argument I see it more as buying votes to maintain a foothold on power.

[einhander]

Call it whatever you want, it's a fact of life.

[BraveUlysses]

Minimum wage argument... really separates those who study (sound) economics, and those who watch (state-sanctioned) television programming.

Hahahahaha what economic arguments have been presented here in opposition to this?




well anyway, there's a term for the behavior and psychology behind this issue: last-place aversion.

Our recent research suggests that, far from being surprised that many working-class individuals would oppose redistribution, we might actually expect their opposition to rise during times of turmoil – despite the fact that redistribution appears to be in their economic interest. Our work suggests that people exhibit a fundamental loathing for being near or in last place – what we call “last place aversion.” This fear can lead people near the bottom of the income distribution to oppose redistribution because it might allow people at the very bottom to catch up with them or even leapfrog past them.

How does last-place aversion play out with regard to redistribution? In our surveys, we asked Americans whether they supported an increase to the minimum wage, currently $7.25 per hour. Those making $7.25 or below were very likely to support the increase – after all, they would be immediate beneficiaries. In addition, people making substantially more than $7.25 were also fairly positive towards the increase. Which group was the most opposed? Those making just above the minimum wage, between $7.26 and $8.25. We might expect people who make just below and just above $7.25 to have similar lifestyles and policy attitudes – but in this case, while those making below $7.25 would benefit if the minimum wage were raised to, say, $8.25, those making just above $7.25 would run the risk of falling into a tie for last place.

We’ve also found evidence of last place aversion in laboratory experiments. In one, we created an artificial income distribution by endowing individuals with different sums of money and showing them their “rank”– with each rank separated by $1. We then gave them an additional $2, which they had to give to either the person directly below or directly above them in the distribution. In this income distribution, of course, giving $2 to the person below you means he will jump ahead of you in rank. In our experiments, most people still give to the person below them – after all, the alternative is to give $2 to a person who already has more money than you. People in second-to-last place, however, who would fall to last place when giving the money to the person below them, are the least likely to do so: so strong is their desire to avoid last place that they choose to give the money to a wealthier person (the person above them) nearly half the time. If Americans behave like people in our experiments, then it could be challenging to unite those in the bottom of the income distribution to support redistribution.

audio interview with the study's author here

[mrsleeve]

Still fucking that chicken I see. I dont think most of us making any of the arguments aginst are anywhere near ending up tied for the last spot in the competition

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/PA701.pdf

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.8 million paid-hourly employees were paid the federal minimum wage of $7.25 in 2010. *6 These 1.8 million employees can be broken down into two broad groups:

●Roughly half (49.0 percent) are teenagers or young adults aged 24 or under.
A large majority (62.2 percent) of this group live in families with incomes two or more times the official poverty level. *7 Looking just at the families of teenaged minimum wage workers, the average income is almost $70,600, and only 16.8 percent are below the poverty line. *8 Note that the federal minimum wage applies to workers of all ages.
*9

● The other half (51.0 percent) are aged 25 and up. *10 More of these workers live in poor families (29.2 percent) or near the poverty level (46.2 percent had family incomes less than 1.5 times the poverty level). *11 However, even within this half of all minimum wage employees, 24.8 percent voluntarily work part-time, and just 34.3 percent
are full-time full-year employees. *12 Only 20.8 percent of all minimum wage workers are family heads or spouses working full time, 30.8 percent were children, and 32.2 percent are young Americans enrolled in school. *13 The popular belief that mini-
mum wage workers are poor adults (25 years old or older), working full time and trying to
raise a family is largely untrue. Just 4.7 percent match that description. *14

Indeed, many minimum wage workers live in families with incomes well above the poverty level

[einhander]

One fifth of all min wage workers are family heads - that's not insignificant.

Good study though, Sleeve. I like Cato's work.

[einhander]

http://time.com/89482/dear-privileged-at-princeton-you-are-privileged-and-meritocracy-is-a-myth/

Good article on the myth of meritocracy for all you with blinders on. Whole piece has some good points about discrimination and reverse discrimination.

.

The real myth here is meritocracy. Fortgang’s major issue with being told to check his privilege is that it “diminish[es] everything I have personally accomplished, all the hard work I have done in my life, and for ascribing all the fruit I reap not to the seeds I sow but to some invisible patron saint of white maleness who places it out for me before I even arrive.” How about this: No one is saying Fortgang did not sow seeds, but checking his privilege is just acknowledging that the ground he tilled was more fertile than the ground others tilled. They could have spent the same amount of time in the hot sun, watering these seeds, but Fortgang might still reap better results because of certain advantages. For example, he says his value of education is a privilege, and it might be. However, his African American counterpart in an underfunded, under-sourced school with the same value of education and work ethic may not be afforded the same opportunities at the end of his high school career. Ultimately, success is when hard work meets opportunity.

...

This lack of touch with reality was probably evident in the comments he made about welfare that prompted one of our classmates to suggest that he check his privilege in the first place. If he did, maybe then would he understand that there are people on welfare who work just as hard as he does but don’t have the same opportunities. Maybe if he were keen to the realities of racial profiling and discrepancies in convictions of homicides that shift depending on the race of the victims and defendants, he wouldn’t want to punch people angry over the Zimmerman verdict in their “idiot faces.” Fortgang’s understanding of so many issues and people would increase if he took the first step towards recognizing his own privilege.

[mrsleeve]

^Sounds like someone took their prescribed morning dose of Whiteguiltivia® that is doled out free (but subsidized) to patients under Obamacare.

[einhander]

[mrsleeve]

Yeah I read the "check your privilege" thing a few days ago.....

here how about we read Mr Fortgangs actual words and his actual editorial....

http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/

Seem as though your chosen editorial is from another Princeton student that is trying to play the race gambit and seems to embody the victim mentally even though she is a well positioned and accomplished student at a prestigious university, I can only wonder if AA helped her gain admission to such a selective school like it did for one of our newly minted SCOTUS judges???

Ironic post is full of Irony, seems that a Student that may have had her race (and likely gender) to her advantage, to help her gain admission to such a selective university should have any pedestal to perch on, to debase someone for not apologizing for the circumstances of their own birth, while at the same time embracing her own privileges is a bit short sighted and just maybe a little stereotypical, dont you think..... Talk about wearing blinders...

this is a little dated

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S11/80/78Q19/index.xml?section=newsreleases

[ck_taft325is]

That's a bad thing.
It means that when they need to dip into that savings and it isn't there, they'll be on SS which will be funded by my, or my childrens', tax burden.

If they have the skills to command a higher wage in the labor market, good for them.
The government mandate to pay more for less is just going to distort the labor market and tie unskilled minimum wage earners to Seattle, because they won't be able to earn a living anywhere else in the country.

This is the real result of a $15/hr minimum wage: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...flipping-robot

Everything about that burger looks like asshole.

[ck_taft325is]

That's a bad thing.
It means that when they need to dip into that savings and it isn't there, they'll be on SS which will be funded by my, or my childrens', tax burden.

If they have the skills to command a higher wage in the labor market, good for them.
The government mandate to pay more for less is just going to distort the labor market and tie unskilled minimum wage earners to Seattle, because they won't be able to earn a living anywhere else in the country.

This is the real result of a $15/hr minimum wage: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...flipping-robot

They instituted different phase-in rules depending on a few criteria:

businesses that have less or more than 500 employees
businesses that provide healthcare

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattle-mayor-says-hell-announce-15-minimum-wage-plan-257522241.html

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2014/05/mayor-murray-says-hell-announce-15-wage-plan-at-1030-a-m/

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/04/25/minimum-wage-is-a-firm-with-500-employees-a-small-business/

It's not happening all at once so everyone in this thread who can't be bothered to read should shut the fuck up until they do so.

Fuck, I used to get so frustrated at you. Now? I would have your babies, dude. And I'm a baby making machine!

Having been through 2 large acquisitions at a relatively small company that then was eaten by a larger and then an even larger? I can tell you for a fact that this $15.00 minimum wage in Seattle is AMAZING. Why? Because that will translate across the board for a lot of people in other areas making more/less than the $15.00 proposal.

Anyone saying they don't want to see people flipping burgers to get $15.00? Fuck you. You flip burgers for $9.75. It's fucking work. "Oh, work harder" you say? You want to know what Lowe's Inc. told me when I busted my ass on the floor? "You work too well on the floor, sorry, you won't ever be moved onto management. We can't afford to lose you..." - "Oh really? What's my end game here in say 5 years?" - "Well, we can maybe get you to $12.00/hr by that time frame...". Did I leave and get a "better" job? Sure. But that's absolute garbage. Look at Lowe's profit margins.

Hard work in big box operations does not translate to bettering yourself.