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    *You* claimed that the only way to ensure anyone complied with a background check law was a registration list of gun purchases.

    If Arizona doesn't compile a list of retail gun purchases, how do they enforce background checks for retail purchases?

    Arizona requires retail gun purchasers fill out form 4473 and an FFL dealer submits the form to ATF.
    Here is form 4473


    Dealers must maintain record of firearm transactions for 20 years. ATF can access records at any time during a criminal investigation. If the dealer retires, they have to surrender their records to the ATF.

    This is the "list" he thinks private party transfers subjected to background checks would generate. It's the same "list" California gun dealers have to compile for both retail and private sales. It's this "list" he thinks could possibly lead to wholesale gun confiscation around the country.

    Either ParsedOut doesn't know his own state's laws on retail purchases, doesn't know federal law regarding retail purchases, or he's trying to portray himself as reasonable in this discussion even though underneath it all his position is way, way, way out of line with the rest of the country. This isn't just about universal background checks, his logic calls for doing away with all background checks for all purchases everywhere.

    There are people who want form 4473 never, sometimes, and always. He wants it never. Some of us in this thread are arguing for requiring it always. If anyone thinks that we should have it sometimes, but not always, then explain the difference between requiring it for retail purchases and not for private party transactions. Currently we have it sometimes because the gun lobby has successfully argued that it shouldn't be required for private party transfers and politicians were still able to get it pushed through at the federal level. There isn't any logical reasoning for how the laws are currently--requiring it for retail purchases but not for private party transfers--and all attempts to explain why it's ok for retail sales and not private sales start to fall apart as soon as you question the person making the claim as happened here in this thread.

    What becomes apparent is that people opposed to background checks for private party transfers are opposed to background checks, in general. They're opposed to background checks period but they aren't willing to own up to that because they know that *most* people will think they're on the fringe when they express that view. It calls into question how many of them holding this view actually submit the proper paperwork and do their due diligence whether a potential purchaser is a prohibited person or not. Their lack of respect for the law in this regard is one of the root causes of gun violence in this country; it's easy to cast it off as something that only street criminals are responsible for but every single person who shrugs off their responsibility when it comes to regulating guns in this country shares responsibility for the guns that circulate through our society and into the hands of someone who uses them in the commission of a violent crime.
    Last edited by smooth; 06-16-2014, 05:23 PM.
    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

    Comment


      Calguns is a great resource for all things firearms in California.

      According to them, a background check as defined by completing form 4473 is not required at an FFL private party transfer.

      Originally posted by calguns foundation
      Standard handgun requirements

      The buyer must be at least 21 years old.

      The buyer must have the Handgun Safety Certificate (Penal Code 12071(a)(8)(B))and perform the safe handling demonstration required by Penal Code 12071(a)(8)(D)

      Handguns transferred through PPT are exempt from the Roster. (Penal Code 12132(a))

      Handguns transferred through PPT are exempt from the 1 per 30 days rule. (Penal Code 12072(a)(9)(B)(viii)) Note that the City of Los Angeles has a local ordinance imposing 1 in 30 days even on PPT.


      Edit: Its buried, but the DROS initiates a background check.
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      Comment


        Forms stored at the FFL are totally different than the registry CA has implemented. Keep making things up if that helps.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ParsedOut View Post
          Currently the background checks (which are little more than NICS checks for ineligibility) are retained at the FFL for a certain period of time and the ATF or any other gov't agency is not allowed to obtain the full records, only specific ones under due process. Myself I have purchased many guns through FFLs (actually I've never bought a gun private party, sold a few though) and don't really mind having my NICS check on file there.
          Originally posted by ParsedOut View Post
          Forms stored at the FFL are totally different than the registry CA has implemented. Keep making things up if that helps.
          Alright, I'll ask you again then...what difference does it make in your mind to require that all private party transactions go through an FFL dealer where they store the forms just like they currently do for retail sales?
          Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

          Comment


            Originally posted by smooth View Post
            Alright, I'll ask you again then...what difference does it make in your mind to require that all private party transactions go through an FFL dealer where they store the forms just like they currently do for retail sales?
            For the 4th time...FFLs are audited to ensure every firearm is accounted for, that's the enforcement of the current system. How do you propose we enforce that on an individual level without a registry? I feel like we've covered this before.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ParsedOut View Post
              For the 4th time...FFLs are audited to ensure every firearm is accounted for, that's the enforcement of the current system. How do you propose we enforce that on an individual level without a registry? I feel like we've covered this before.
              We have to go it every time you change your position, apparently.

              ***Mandate that private party transfers go through FFL's the same as retail purchases.***

              There is a list for retail purchases already, both in your state and California. There's a "list" in every single state that complies with the federal regulations regarding form 4473.

              If you have a problem with that potential "list" then you really have a problem with any and all background checks and requiring anyone to submit form 4473.

              That's the only "list" that exists in California. Not sure which blog you're sourcing your carefully researched positions from, but the only "roster" that exists is a list of guns that can't be bought over the counter (but are exempt for private party transfers even though the transfers have to be facilitated by an FFL).
              Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

              Comment


                You are so wrong it's laughable. There is a real registry in California, there is no "list" of any sort in AZ or most other states in the union. 100s of FFLs with filing cabinets full of handwritten 4473 forms is not a list, you can try to spin that however you like.

                You continue to say, "mandate that private party...blah blah blah" but you keep ignoring the fact that you cannot enforce the law without a registry... If you want to make a stance that a registry is required and that you are for a registry then do it but stop trying to say that we don't need it without providing a viable way to do it. Our current system is only set up to enforce FFLs, private citizens cannot be enforced the same.

                Admittedly I don't keep up with all the changes in every state, read a while back about a CA registry. If I'm wrong about that, well then so be it. Doesn't change the fact that there isn't a registry in every other state as you are proposing. Your entire argument about gun owners that are against private party background checks are therefore against the current system is false.
                Last edited by ParsedOut; 06-16-2014, 06:26 PM.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by ParsedOut View Post
                  You are so wrong it's laughable. There is a real registry in California, there is no "list" of any sort in AZ or most other states in the union. 100s of FFLs with filing cabinets full of handwritten 4473 forms is not a list, you can try to spin that however you like.

                  You continue to say, "mandate that private party...blah blah blah" but you keep ignoring the fact that you cannot enforce the law without a registry... If you want to make a stance that a registry is required and that you are for a registry then do it but stop trying to say that we don't need it without providing a viable way to do it. Our current system is only set up to enforce FFLs, private citizens cannot be enforced the same.
                  Well, I'll give you this much: you certainly live up to your name in trying to "parse" the difference between FFL's retaining records that are accessible by the ATF whenever they want for 20 years and any given state retaining those same records.

                  So why aren't you opposed to FFL's retaining their records for 20 years if your worry is that they would have to be compelled to turn over those records if a state's Congress passed a law requiring them to do so?
                  Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by smooth View Post
                    Well, I'll give you this much: you certainly live up to your name in trying to "parse" the difference between FFL's retaining records that are accessible by the ATF whenever they want for 20 years and any given state retaining those same records.

                    So why aren't you opposed to FFL's retaining their records for 20 years if your worry is that they would have to be compelled to turn over those records if a state's Congress passed a law requiring them to do so?
                    Haha, the ATF cannot obtain them in mass without court order. Anybody that knows me (not you) understands my healthy skepticism of our government and I don't say that I have warm fuzzies about the 4473 forms sitting in a filing cabinet at my local gun store. If the ATF wants to obtain millions of handwritten forms under legal court order (not easy) and have them data entered one by one into a database. Well there is only so much one can do, I'm not so tin foil as to only buy private party to "stay off the grid".

                    Hey, so you've conveniently avoided the conversation about addressing the root cause of violence instead of myopically focusing on only one aspect. Or have you not bothered to consider it?

                    BTW
                    So there is a registry in CA...of sorts.

                    Public Where do I find laws regarding the possession of firearms? I'm not sure whether I have a California record that would prevent me from owning/possessing a firearm. Is there a way to find out before I attempt to purchase one? What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California? How can I obtain a Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) license? Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later? Can I give a firearm to my spouse or registered domestic partner? Can he/she give it back to me later?


                    "If you purchased a handgun from a properly licensed California firearms dealer and underwent a background check via the state’s Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) process, a record of your handgun purchase is already on file with the Department. Therefore, it should not be necessary for you to submit a FOR application for handguns previously purchased in California. Unfortunately, this is not the case with regards to rifles or shotguns. Prior to January 1, 2014, the Department was prohibited by law from retaining DROS long gun information."

                    Comment


                      as the link you cited points out, that didn't exist for rifles prior to this year. so obviously, or at least obvious to me, it can't account for the confiscations you were referencing in the thread earlier. the confiscations you were referencing earlier happened because California maintains a roster of prohibited rifles and some people refused to abide by the law. Similar to the feds requiring registration of fully automatic weapons, California required registration of banned "assault weapons." They didn't use the registration to confiscate the weapons, however, as lots of people wrongly assume.

                      What they did was confiscate weapons that *weren't* registered according to the law within the timeframe. Some people either refused to register or registered their banned rifles after the cut-off date and, when it was found out, got themselves into trouble. But again, it wasn't the list itself that caused the issue it was people refusing to adhere to the law. The people who registered their banned rifles still get to keep them to this day. And if they want to sell them they simply swap out the banned features and sell it through an FFL.

                      none of what you wrote has anything to do with background checks. these things you're now bringing up are completely unrelated to background checks.

                      no, I don't bother considering the root cause of violence because it's stupid to try and think I can prevent crime
                      Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by smooth View Post
                        as the link you cited points out, that didn't exist for rifles prior to this year. so obviously, or at least obvious to me, it can't account for the confiscations you were referencing in the thread earlier. the confiscations you were referencing earlier happened because California maintains a roster of prohibited rifles and some people refused to abide by the law. Similar to the feds requiring registration of fully automatic weapons, California required registration of banned "assault weapons." They didn't use the registration to confiscate the weapons, however, as lots of people wrongly assume.

                        What they did was confiscate weapons that *weren't* registered according to the law within the timeframe. Some people either refused to register or registered their banned rifles after the cut-off date and, when it was found out, got themselves into trouble. But again, it wasn't the list itself that caused the issue it was people refusing to adhere to the law. The people who registered their banned rifles still get to keep them to this day. And if they want to sell them they simply swap out the banned features and sell it through an FFL.

                        none of what you wrote has anything to do with background checks. these things you're now bringing up are completely unrelated to background checks.

                        no, I don't bother considering the root cause of violence because it's stupid to try and think I can prevent crime
                        I never said CA had previously confiscated guns, I said DiFi wants to take them all and given the congressional approval she knows exactly where they are.

                        Wait, so you say it's stupid to try and think about preventing crime? What purpose would these background checks serve then? Hmm...

                        Comment


                          The "List" exists.
                          The FBI doesn't dispose of NICS data the way it's required to by law.
                          The ATF illegally copies 4473's "just because" without connection to a criminal investigation.

                          So while the current law forbids the practices that would allow these agencies to establish a registry, they do those activities anyway.

                          I don't think background checks actually accomplish anything anyway.

                          California has been confiscating guns for a wide variety of tenuous reasons for a couple of years now. "Mental health" seems to be the buzzword of the day. They'll show up at the target's (someone on whom they have both a record of likely firearms purchase AND some item mental-health-related data) house with a freaking SWAT team, "talk" (intimidate) their way in because they don't have ANY legal basis for a search, then confiscate whatever guns they find.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ParsedOut View Post
                            Haha, the ATF cannot obtain them in mass without court order.
                            Not legally... but they do anyway.

                            Comment


                              @Dark side: Got any documentation? I just would love to read up on some of this stuff.

                              Comment


                                ATF/4473's: http://gunowners.org/news02042013c.htm

                                A LOT of anecdotal evidence by guys who like to be informed: http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums...ad.php?t=39383

                                California confiscation (among MANY other results): http://gunowners.org/oped08292013d.htm

                                Most of this info is available googling terms like "ATF 4473 copying", California gun confiscation mental health" etc.

                                Comment

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