Another week, another school shooting

[marshallnoise]

It's not a new law. It already exists. Our neighboring states don't adhere to it so we have to deal with the consequences.

It is not proven that these types of purchase do not make up the majority of crimes committed with a gun. Stealing them does.

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[smooth]

It is not proven that these types of purchase do not make up the majority of crimes committed with a gun. Stealing them does.

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From your link stealing firearms only account for about a quarter of a million of illegal guns used in crimes. Private party sales account for a little over 1/3 of a million of illegal guns used in crimes.

Read the article you linked. It doesn't actually state that the majority of guns used in crimes come from theft. That's an assumption you made because you didn't know that more illegally used guns are procured through private party sales.

Not that it matters. This isn't a discussion about some silver bullet, it's a discussion about reducing the amount of illegally procured guns on the street. If you want more solutions then fine, in Illinois people have to report guns that are stolen. It doesn't prevent people from stealing guns, obviously, but it does reduce the amount of people who sell their guns to people in violation of the law and then later claiming, "oh that gun, I think it was stolen a couple years back...sorry."

[marshallnoise]

From your link stealing firearms only account for about a quarter of a million of illegal guns used in crimes. Private party sales account for a little over 1/3 of a million of illegal guns used in crimes.

Read the article you linked. It doesn't actually state that the majority of guns used in crimes come from theft. That's an assumption you made because you didn't know that more illegally used guns are procured through private party sales.

A private party sale from one felon to another is hardly the same thing dude. Just like 74 school shootings, you guys just make up the facts to fit the agenda.

Where the hell in the article does it say 1/3 of a million guns used in crimes were acquired through private party sales?

Christmas is the one day of the year that Wal-Mart is closed, but for a group of four New Mexico burglars, it was the perfect time to stop in for some firearms.

Video surveillance cameras caught the masked burglars red-handed, stealing rifle after rifle. Police arrested the four men, and were able to recover the guns. But all too often, stolen weapons end up in the hands of criminals.

The New Mexico caper is part of a flood of gun thefts nationwide. And it's not only commercial gun dealers vulnerable to theft.

Guns are a top target for home burglars looking for something they can easily sell on the street.

An estimated 230,000 guns per year are stolen in home burglaries and property crimes, according to a study by the Department of Justice.

"Any burglar that goes in a house and finds guns, their eyes are going to light up," says former ATF Assistant Director Mike Bouchard. "That's the first thing they're going to take."

The statistics for commercial thefts show that nearly 25,000 guns per year are lost or stolen from gun dealers.

According to the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), more than 4,000 gun stores and retailers have been targeted in the last three years, with 74,000 guns reported stolen or lost. And criminals will use any method possible to get their hands on some weapons, either for their own use, or to sell on the black market.

Recently, thieves have taken to using a stolen vehicle to ram down the front doors of a gun store. In North Charleston, S.C., for example, burglars smashed a stolen truck right through Guns and Gold Trading Post, stealing $4,500 worth of guns before making a quick getaway.

"Gun stores are like candy stores for criminals," says Mike Bouchard.

2012 was a record year for gun sales, with more than 19.5 million background checks run for gun purchases, up almost 20% from the previous year. But while legitimate sales skyrocket, huge numbers of illegal guns are hitting the streets.

According to the Justice Department, more than 1.4 million guns were stolen or lost between 2005 and 2010.

Former ATF Assistant Director Bouchard says crooks have easy access to cheap stolen guns on the street.

"If you talk to any criminal, they can find a gun within an hour or two. Cheaper guns that were stolen can be sold for $50. On the street, a typical good handgun will run you $200 to $300," Bouchard said.

Some thieves have even targeted gun shipments, stealing the weapons before they get to market.

Last November, for example, a rogue truck driver allegedly stole a shipment of 111 guns he was supposed to deliver from the Smith and Wesson factory in Springfield, Mass.

When police caught him, they recovered 28 of the stolen guns, but some had already been used in crimes.

When police arrested the alleged stick-up robber known as the Black Jacket Bandit, they found one of the stolen guns was allegedly used by him in a convenience store robbery within weeks of the delivery heist.

In November, more than 100 powerful AK-47s were stolen from a rail yard in Atlanta. The guns were in a box car containing more than 1,000 guns being shipped from an overseas manufacturer to a major U.S. distributor, authorities say.

A few of the weapons have been recovered, but police are deeply concerned about having scores of new assault rifles falling into the wrong hands.

Given all the gun thefts, police say it is critical for gun owners to secure their weapons in gun safes or locked cases. And authorities are urging gun retailers to fortify their buildings, to try to prevent "smash and grab" type robberies.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/hot-guns-fueling-crime-us-study/story?id=18318610

[smooth]

A private party sale from one felon to another is hardly the same thing dude. Just like 74 school shootings, you guys just make up the facts to fit the agenda.

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what are you talking about? My figures are referring to guns that are used in a crime that are eventually traced back to legal purchasers who sold their guns off-record.

[marshallnoise]

what are you talking about? My figures are referring to guns that are used in a crime that are eventually traced back to legal purchasers who sold their guns off-record.

Where are those stats? How is it determined that a legally purchased gun was sold to a criminal via private party sale? :loco: I doubt that those statistics can even be figured out without a hell of a lot of conjecture.

[z31maniac]

Where are those stats? How is it determined that a legally purchased gun was sold to a criminal via private party sale? :loco: I doubt that those statistics can even be figured out without a hell of a lot of conjecture.

This is why I left this conversation.

You use conjecture to accuse someone else of conjecture.

For fucks sake. Enjoy gents.

[smooth]

Where the hell in the article does it say 1/3 of a million guns used in crimes were acquired through private party sales?

It doesn't say in the article.

If you're interested in actually learning something from a recognized expert, then read this:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/publications/WintemuteBragaKennedyPPGS.pdf

it's only a few pages long.

Where are those stats? How is it determined that a legally purchased gun was sold to a criminal via private party sale? :loco: I doubt that those statistics can even be figured out without a hell of a lot of conjecture.

It's simple really...a gun gets recovered at a crime scene and the feds go talk to the last person who bought it on record.

[marshallnoise]

This is why I left this conversation.

You use conjecture to accuse someone else of conjecture.

For fucks sake. Enjoy gents.

How is that conjecture? The premise is that a legally purchased gun was sold to a criminal. To the tune of 333,333 of them. With no stats to back it up.

[CorvallisBMW]

It doesn't say in the article. For clarification, I hold a doctorate in criminology, law, and society from UC Irvine. I teach criminal justice for SDSU. Before that I taught for Oregon State. I've testified for Congress on this topic, been a member of multiple President's commissions researching gun violence (under various administrations, not just democratic ones), and I present my work in various peer reviewed journals and conferences. When I speak in front of an audience, it's a mix of who knows what politically but LEO and health practitioners listen to and respect my expertise. I create hundreds of officers each year that patrol our streets and I help train them to do their jobs safely and correctly.

inb4 gun-tards accuse you of lacking credibility.

[marshallnoise]

It doesn't say in the article. For clarification, I hold a doctorate in criminology, law, and society from UC Irvine. I teach criminal justice for SDSU. Before that I taught for Oregon State. I've testified for Congress on this topic, been a member of multiple President's commissions researching gun violence (under various administrations, not just democratic ones), and I present my work in various peer reviewed journals and conferences. When I speak in front of an audience, it's a mix of who knows what politically but LEO and health practitioners listen to and respect my expertise. I create hundreds of officers each year that patrol our streets and I help train them to do their jobs safely and correctly.

That's what I do for a paycheck. Sometimes I waste my time in these threads because they go on for years running around the same arguments. Occasionally I pop in to correct the nonsense that gets slung around. But most of the time I just use this site to work on my E30. My time away from the keyboard is where I address the issues that you are just bloviating about.

If you're interested in actually learning something from a recognized expert, then read this:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/publications/WintemuteBragaKennedyPPGS.pdf

it's only a few pages long.


It's simple really...a gun gets recovered at a crime scene and the feds go talk to the last person who bought it on record.

You can't fucking read your own article, can you?

Some 85% of all guns used in crimes and then recovered by law-enforcement agencies have been sold at least once by private parties.

That is merely a statistic and is meaningless. And as academics usually do, it is used to posit a theory, write an essay, get published in a peer-reviewed piece of toilet paper, to get more money for grants and other pet projects, all the while perpetrating another ill-conceived notion that is cited infinitely because an academic who is peer reviewed published it and they must be right, they are learn-ed!

Correlation (and it is a stretch to call this a correlation) is not causation.

[z31maniac]

Where are those stats? How is it determined that a legally purchased gun was sold to a criminal via private party sale? :loco: I doubt that those statistics can even be figured out without a hell of a lot of conjecture.

You doubt. You can't prove they can't be figured out.

An opinion without evidence is conjecture.

Do you even pay attention to what you write?

[smooth]

I'll just wait here while you get past the first page...

[CorvallisBMW]

The law doesn't stop people from committing crimes. Kids still drink. Often stealing from their parent's stash. Just like guns get into criminal hands.

I don't know how many more ways I can say this:

Will it stop 100% of straw purchases? Of course not, and no one is suggesting that it would. but it would help.

What is dogmatic is expecting that a new law will make things better. History has already proven that it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Please show me your "proof".

[CorvallisBMW]

That is merely a statistic and is meaningless.

I'm quoting this so that you can't go back later and delete it, because it's the single dumbest things I've ever heard you say.

And as academics usually do, it is used to posit a theory, write an essay, get published in a peer-reviewed paper

Yes, that's called the research process. Submit a research topic, investigate and gather evidence, form a hypothesis, have your work reviewed to ensure it doesn't contain errors and meets the high standards required, and then it is published. As opposed you your modus operandi of endless conjecture backed up by more conjecture.

to get more money for grants and other pet projects

Name 1 single wealthy professor. Go ahead, I'll wait here for you.

all the while perpetrating another ill-conceived notion that is cited infinitely because an academic who is peer reviewed published it and they must be right, they are learn-ed!

Yep, that's the point of peer review. It ensures you can't publish BS, because you have to have it reviewed by other experts in the field. If it doesn't hold water, it's rejected.

Tell me, how many peer-reviewed papers have you had published?

[ajhostetter]

Name 1 single wealthy professor. Go ahead, I'll wait here for you.

You guys are funny. That said ^ Cornell West.