Israelis in Gaza or Ferguson, MO?

[Dirty325ix]

The biggest problem for me is I don't trust a cop whose ass is on the line.....I personally know people that grew up to be police officers and both of them personally told me they would lie under oath(it was before a court case and I wanted advice)
So with that being said I don't believe anything in that cops testimony(and believe he had help making it) and I have no respect for what I believe to be a racist police department that is trying to cover its ass, I would be a lot less angry if maybe the police responded with what they are doing to stop this from ever happening again instead of defamation of the boys character

No I don't think the riots are acceptable but I also think the media and police stoked the fire just as much as the extremist from out of town

I am in DC and there are no riots because like the mayor said our police force is a representation of our community
They trully cared about the people they protect and vice versa....there were no military uniforms out tonight and no tear gas and no riots
Bottom line I don't understand how someone could think the system isn't biased and things need to change...regardless of who done it

[Schnitzer318is]

I have to say... I'm in full agreeance with you on this one Sleeve. As you said this was made out to be Treyvon 2.0 and just isn't. I'm glad they decided to release all the evidence because otherwise there might have been another shit storm.

People's kneejerk reactions are always to further an agenda with stuff like this and the only people privy to all the evidence at the time was the jury. They made their call and people took the opportunity to either peacefully protest to further an agenda or loot/pillage because... well because they could. Without having evidence they are just as guilty of profiling as any cop would be, just on a different level and for a different goal.

Now, don't take the above as me saying there isn't ration profiling (or other profiling) going on by LEOs... I've been subjected to it a couple times myself... I'm not black either.

[smooth]

The biggest problem for me is I don't trust a cop whose ass is on the line.....I personally know people that grew up to be police officers and both of them personally told me they would lie under oath(it was before a court case and I wanted advice)
So with that being said I don't believe anything in that cops testimony(and believe he had help making it) and I have no respect for what I believe to be a racist police department that is trying to cover its ass, I would be a lot less angry if maybe the police responded with what they are doing to stop this from ever happening again instead of defamation of the boys character

No I don't think the riots are acceptable but I also think the media and police stoked the fire just as much as the extremist from out of town

I am in DC and there are no riots because like the mayor said our police force is a representation of our community
They trully cared about the people they protect and vice versa....there were no military uniforms out tonight and no tear gas and no riots
Bottom line I don't understand how someone could think the system isn't biased and things need to change...regardless of who done it

that's where I'm at on this topic

the clincher for me is when the cop lies in the first minute of the video and then continually references the kid as "a man" indicating he's been coached by an attorney, internal affairs, public relations, or all of them for his "interview"

well, maybe he didn't "lie" in that first minute of the interview but everyone here has to ask themselves how likely it is that a cop pulls alongside a young black kid waltzing down middle of the street and asks in his best grey coupon voice, "excuse me, would you kindly move onto the sidewalk, seeeerrrr?"

never seen a cop talk like that to a kid regardless of the circumstances. so no, not buying that part of the story as to how the whole thing started in the first place.

also not buying his account of what happened after he unloaded a bunch of bullets into the kid. speaking as someone who has both taken a bullet into his body as well as put a bullet into someone else's body, even though this will go against all the paper target internet gunslingers here, the account doesn't seem accurate.

not basing this off so-called eye-witness testimony, which is actually the worst kind of evidence we use. likely that they all believed what they think they saw but to accept their statements uncritically is to assume that what they think they saw wasn't colored by their experiences, what was going on around them, the news reports, and their faulty memories.

just based off life experiences and my assessment of the situation seems more likely that the kid was acting erratic, the cop interpreted his behavior as dangerous, got scared, pull his gun, then shot the kid (out of fear rather than defense), and then kept on shooting (not to cover up a conspiracy because no one is going to believe a young, black kid over a white cop anyway, but because he was scared and full of adrenaline) as the kid either reacted in some way the cop interpreted as dangerous or even ran/stepped/who knows or cares toward a cop he didn't trust in the first place and just landed a slew of bullets into his body.

obviously he's not going to testify that his training didn't overrule his brain and reflexes so case closed as far as the formal justice system is concerned.

sad part is how many of the so-called anti-government folks in this forum rallied to the side of the cop so quickly and continue there regardless of all the other things you say you believe about how likely the government is to violate one's rights given the first opportunity. the reality is, there's no good cause to celebrate the death of a minor in the streets in broad daylight regardless of the circumstances. that you'd be willing to do so because you feel your "side" is vindicated indicates something broken inside you as a compassionate and empathetic human being. sludge...just like the cop who can't do his job in a properly trained manner and he needs to be taken off the streets and put behind the desk before he kills/maims/harms another person innocent or guilty.

[slaterd]

I understand where you're coming from smooth.
However, I can't side with a group who makes a thug and a criminal into a martyr. I can't side with a group who's leaders have an agenda to make any and all white people who disagree with them to look like monstrous bigots. I can't side with a group of people who want the head of an officer on a spike when he was saving his life from a man...and yes man (300lbs. 18years old)...who could've easily killed him without being armed with a typical deadly weapon. These people want white blood and this country is falling into a social and intellectual decay. At this point I have lost all hope for the country I live in. All I see is an ignorant, band wagoner type group who has been manipulated by racebaters and ignorance.
Race should have never been an issue in this but the black community saw an opportunity to pull the race card so they did. It is so easy these days to pull the race card when you can't understand a situation for what it really is.
The thug assaulted the police officer and attempted to take his gun. The officer shot his ass dead. This would happen to anyone; black, white, yellow, pink, even GREEN! This culture needs to stop idolizing thugs/criminals and stop shunning intelligence in these neighborhoods.
The excuse of "you don't know what it's like living on the streets" is an excuse for weakness. I lived in a shit area in Los Angelos. But instead of going out with my homies and destroying shit I stayed home and concentrated on my education. THAT is what needs to happen. A whole cultural upheaval.

[Dirty325ix]

But I do not believe that he ever actually had his hand on the gun that part of the testimony is very confusing
Yes I believe if he actually had his hand on the gun than it would be a different story but the fact that he ended up over 100 ft away from the cop car makes me wonder if anyone told the truth

And why didn't they get Darren Wilson testimony at the scene...maybe so they could couch him and get it straight

[BraveUlysses]

I think the biggest single problem is not the argument of the details of what led to the shooting, the shooting itself or the unfortunate riots in the aftermath.

It's that the prosecutor fucked this up beyond belief and due to that, the grand jury did not return an indictment as they should have. I don't think that there is sufficient evidence to convict Wilson, but there was certainly enough to get an indictment.

Obviously McCulloch did not choose to put this to a grand jury but at the same time, he didn't act in the proper way that a prosecutor should for one: the defendant testified on his own behalf, and secondly the prosecutor presented exculpatory evidence for the defendant.

Justice Antonin Scalia, in the 1992 Supreme Court case of United States v. Williams, explained what the role of a grand jury has been for hundreds of years.

It is the grand jury’s function not ‘to enquire … upon what foundation [the charge may be] denied,’ or otherwise to try the suspect’s defenses, but only to examine ‘upon what foundation [the charge] is made’ by the prosecutor. Respublica v. Shaffer, 1 Dall. 236 ( O. T. Phila. 1788 ); see also F. Wharton, Criminal Pleading and Practice § 360, pp. 248-249 ( 8th ed. 1880 ). As a consequence, neither in this country nor in England has the suspect under investigation by the grand jury ever been thought to have a right to testify or to have exculpatory evidence presented.

Compare that to this, which is what McCulloch said to the jurors before deliberation:

And you must find probable cause to believe that Darren Wilson did not act in lawful self-defense and you must find probable cause to believe that Darren Wilson did not use lawful force in making an arrest. If you find those things, which is kind of like finding a negative, you cannot return an indictment on anything or true bill unless you find both of those things. Because both are complete defenses to any offense and they both have been raised in his, in the evidence.

He didn't want the GJ to indict and worked hard to make sure it wouldn't happen. It seems to be a general trend for grand juries to not indict police officers, especially compared to how often (99.9%) of the time they will indict for civilians.

Some good reading here for those who want more case law info:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/11/cases-and-controversies-not-your-typical-grand-jury-investigation/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/11/24/the-rarity-of-a-federal-grand-jury-not-indicting-visualized/

[BraveUlysses]

I understand where you're coming from smooth.
However, I can't side with a group who makes a thug and a criminal into a martyr. I can't side with a group who's leaders have an agenda to make any and all white people who disagree with them to look like monstrous bigots. I can't side with a group of people who want the head of an officer on a spike when he was saving his life from a man...and yes man (300lbs. 18years old)...who could've easily killed him without being armed with a typical deadly weapon. These people want white blood and this country is falling into a social and intellectual decay. At this point I have lost all hope for the country I live in. All I see is an ignorant, band wagoner type group who has been manipulated by racebaters and ignorance.
Race should have never been an issue in this but the black community saw an opportunity to pull the race card so they did. It is so easy these days to pull the race card when you can't understand a situation for what it really is.
The thug assaulted the police officer and attempted to take his gun. The officer shot his ass dead. This would happen to anyone; black, white, yellow, pink, even GREEN! This culture needs to stop idolizing thugs/criminals and stop shunning intelligence in these neighborhoods.
The excuse of "you don't know what it's like living on the streets" is an excuse for weakness. I lived in a shit area in Los Angelos. But instead of going out with my homies and destroying shit I stayed home and concentrated on my education. THAT is what needs to happen. A whole cultural upheaval.

You have some fucked up views.

[slaterd]

Why cause I'm a white guy who isn't afraid to speak my mind on racial issues? Why should the white community have to kneel and apologize for the actions of the black community? Do you know what the statistics are on black-black crime compared to white-black crime? What about black-white crime? It seems that the black community is looking to point the fingers for their own mistakes. It's the white man's fault, it's the police officers' fault, it's the politician's fault, it's the system's fault. BULLSHIT! How about you take responsibility for yourselves for once and stop self-victimizing. Have you ever been in an inner city school and seen what the culture is like there? If you're white, you're fucked...compare that to if you're in a school with majority of white students. If you're black, you're pretty much the most accepted/popular person in the school. If you're in an inner city school and get good grades and are even somewhat intelligent, you're shunned or bullied. It's a culture issue within the black community itself. "I can't be successful because I'm black...the system doesn't work for me". I only hear that in black communities from black people to black people not from white people to black people. Hell even my black coworkers say this shit when I'm telling them to apply for a management position. I heard this shit all the time when I was in L.A. So why should the white community apologize for what the black community is fucking up? Teach your children that an education is the most important thing. Be a proper parent. Don't bail on your baby's momma. Go to school. Get a job. Don't break the law. Quit glamorizing the thug/gangster lifestyle. Don't riot in your community. Because of how this culture is dealing with the situations between them and police officers it's a matter of time before white police officers will no longer want to police these neighborhoods out of fear of being prosecuted for arresting or protecting themselves from a black criminal. This country is going down in the cultural, social, and intellectual shitter and I don't think it will be coming back.

[BraveUlysses]

Your posts are proof that we're already in the "intellectual shitter" but I'm glad you doubled down on your poorly reasoned positions.

[slaterd]

Right, so when you live in a number of communities with a vast amount of cultural diversity as me then you can speak about poorly reasoned positions. See it with your own eyes. Wake up to it everyday. Deal with it day in and day out. Actually learn from your surroundings and what your peers are teaching themselves. Then go to the complete opposite culture and do the same. Then you can give me advice on whether or not my views are poorly chosen instead of what you see in the news and think is right or wrong only picking one to save some face. A harsh reality calls for a harsh viewpoint and a harsh viewpoint is made by a harsh reality. Wake up and get your head out of your Liberal leader's ass.

[slaterd]

Your posts are proof that we're already in the "intellectual shitter" but I'm glad you doubled down on your poorly reasoned positions.

Translation: "yeah well you're stupid." Nice argument Brave.

[BraveUlysses]

Don't be offended that someone reminded you that you're stupid.

I actually made a well reasoned post up above which you completely ignored because you're too busy making wall after wall of word vomit posts.

[slaterd]

Not offended. You sound just like every other liberal when someone points out something that they don't like to hear. It's ok...you're not alone. It's funny how a lot of users for this thread commented in the direction of the cop and summarized very softly about what I've been delving into as far as a social issue. However, you and a small handful seem to be denying what is being thrown in your face.
Watch, a police officer just shot a 12 year old boy who was aiming a toy gun (without the orange cap to make it look real) at people and at the cops. Lack of proper parenting and a cultural issue teaching this kid that waving guns and testing the police is acceptable. However, this "community" is going to blame it on the police and white people instead of taking responsibility for their lack of parenting. Just sit back and watch...it works like clockwork now.
Will the line in which an officer has to defend him/herself be pushed back which will threaten the lives of many officers? I think the actions in both cases, unfortunate as they are since someone lost their life, was justified.

[E30NJ]

The problem is in society we've lost a moral respect for those who enforce the law. They swear an oath that they will protect and serve the community around them, (whether you agree with that or not, that's ok), however this day in age police paranoia is at a all time high. When a cop tells you to do something, you do it, plain and simple. I don't understand why people try to fight the police, we are not under Martial Law, the world isn't ending, the purge is not real but those who fight the police ultimately pay a price either through jail time or their life. In the case of Michael Brown, Officer Wilson felt threatened by Brown and decided to shoot. Brave, if a 300lbs 6'3" 18 year old man lunged at you after punching you twice in the face, what would you do? Everybody is trying to make this a issue of race, and the fact of the matter is, its not. This is a case of police brutality and the use of excessive force.

[mrsleeve]

^

Come on now not even you can believe that, while yes there are good officers out there, what about LE in general. They have seemed to adopt a US Vs. Them mentally towards the population, you see this day in and day out coupled with things like Civil asset forfeiture and DUI/Seat belt check points and other "tools" at their disposal, you can see how the mantra of "protect and serve" is slowly shifting to "hunt and extort".

Your right we are not under martial law, so why do I have to do something a cop orders me to do when I am doing NOTHING WRONG and he has NO business interacting with me in such a manner. This is not "Papers Please" 1930's Germany, LE has a set of laws in which they have to work with in. You can opt out of that by consenting to letting them do what they want. But making them go by the book IS THEIR JOB in the 1st place so.......................... Your argument is what here.

But that being said this is a product of both L/E and Govt as a whole and indirectly society as well. Also though when someone attacks another person cop in the line of duty or joe shadetree walking down the street and forces a altercation I cant hold them responsible for the actions of the aggressor. A cops job is to go out looking for trouble and they are a needed part of society, when they fuck up there needs be consequences but you dont want to place such a great burden on them that they hesitate too much while doing their jobs either. Its a fine line to walk and just a slight deviation either side of it can have dire consequences for the rest of us.

The issue at hand is NOT race nor is police brutality or excessive use of force, but the rights of SELF DEFENSE.

that's where I'm at on this topic

the clincher for me is when the cop lies in the first minute of the video and then continually references the kid as "a man" indicating he's been coached by an attorney, internal affairs, public relations, or all of them for his "interview"

Dude was 18, legally hes a MAN and at 6' 4" and nearly 300lbs, thats a fucking NFL lineman. Like it or not this was a man, with a child's brain I will give you that. A man that used his size and demeanor to intimidate and take shit. His natural size and strength is a weapon in and of it self. Yes we often refer to 10-25 year olds as kids, but that is generally in reference to mentality not stature.

well, maybe he didn't "lie" in that first minute of the interview but everyone here has to ask themselves how likely it is that a cop pulls alongside a young black kid waltzing down middle of the street and asks in his best grey coupon voice, "excuse me, would you kindly move onto the sidewalk, seeeerrrr?"

If you saw a dude that was 6' 4" and pushing 300lbs walking down the street would you think he was a kid or a man??? FFS. I am sure he was bit more direct, and harsh than merely asking, but telling someone to get their ass out of the street does not deserve an ass kicking or attempting to take a cops gun from him either.

also not buying his account of what happened after he unloaded a bunch of bullets into the kid. speaking as someone who has both taken a bullet into his body as well as put a bullet into someone else's body, even though this will go against all the paper target internet gunslingers here, the account doesn't seem accurate.

Not going to argue with your life experiences, but historical and current trends on the battle fields though out the world for the last 150 years show why Small Light and Fast projectiles can lead to this type of situation.

not basing this off so-called eye-witness testimony, which is actually the worst kind of evidence we use. likely that they all believed what they think they saw but to accept their statements uncritically is to assume that what they think they saw wasn't colored by their experiences, what was going on around them, the news reports, and their faulty memories.

Agreed,there is Video shot at the seen moments after (with the dude still laying in the street in the back ground) with witness retelling events confirm Wilson's version of what happened in the final moments of the encounter (brown running away from the car, stopping and charging )

just based off life experiences and my assessment of the situation seems more likely that the kid was acting erratic, the cop interpreted his behavior as dangerous, got scared, pull his gun, then shot the kid (out of fear rather than defense), and then kept on shooting (not to cover up a conspiracy because no one is going to believe a young, black kid over a white cop anyway, but because he was scared and full of adrenaline) as the kid either reacted in some way the cop interpreted as dangerous or even ran/stepped/who knows or cares toward a cop he didn't trust in the first place and just landed a slew of bullets into his body.

SO holding your door shut on your car and punching you in the face a couple of times from a point of both mechanical and tactical advantage, then making an attempt to take your own weapon is now "acting erratic" ehhh

If a man that just punched the shit out of you stops turns around 30 feet from you and charges you what are you going to do........ Given the fact that you know as well as I do that a Average human can cover a distance of 25 feet in 1 second form a dead stop???

I agree with you, on the last line what Brown did was interpreted as dangerous just as you, me, brave, or anyone else out there would have done if placed in the same situation. But you your self have just pointed out the crux of the issue and why the G/J was not even necessary. He was SCARED FOR HIS LIFE this makes this a CUT AND DRY self defense case even if it was joe normal

sad part is how many of the so-called anti-government folks in this forum rallied to the side of the cop so quickly and continue there regardless of all the other things you say you believe about how likely the government is to violate one's rights given the first opportunity. the reality is, there's no good cause to celebrate the death of a minor in the streets in broad daylight regardless of the circumstances. that you'd be willing to do so because you feel your "side" is vindicated indicates something broken inside you as a compassionate and empathetic human being. sludge...just like the cop who can't do his job in a properly trained manner and he needs to be taken off the streets and put behind the desk before he kills/maims/harms another person innocent or guilty.

I was going to ignore your usual drivel and not even bother responding to this until I got to this last bit, as it seems this is losely aimed in my direction (yes pun intended, I know groan......)

I dont celebrate the death of a anyone or anything, yes there are some bad people out there that are better off not being around anymore and that is a topic for latter discussion. As a hunter I take no pleasure in the killing, in fact its hard choice every time I have harvested an animal, there is nothing but reverence for the animal that gives its life so I may continue mine, the fun is the chase and in that respect the animal has every advantage.

That out of the way my reactions to this was a lets see where the chips fall when all the relevant facts come to light. I also dont put a pile of faith in a cops "truthiness" when his ass in a sling, but there was enough candid video from the time of the shooting to put some credibility in his version of events, not to mention the blunt trauma injuries to willson . Also as you know I am no fan of modern policing tactics, but this transcends those things, this is about the rights to defend your self from an aggressor whether you wear a badge, a tie, or name tag makes no difference. If a police officer is not allowed to defend him self in the course of doing his job (which you like to remind us that they have a dangerous job to do, A job in which part of might encompass telling a couple of adolescents or young adults in this case, to get the fuck out of the street and on to the side walk which is escalated into a physical altercation by the stupid man child) Then who can defend themselves.

The Monday morning quarterbacking is counter productive I mean what would you have done shot the dude in the Knee to stop him from coming at you??? You know as well as anyone should when placed in a high stress fight or flight scenario and chose the former you do so until the threat is eliminated and if that means the other guy is dead then so be it, you dont stop defending your self until its OVER.

I understand most of you have little to no wilderness experience so this may not make much sense, but I liken this to a chance encounter with a Grizzly bear. They are big powerful critters that dont need the claws or teeth to maim or kill you just the blunt force can do that. They are known to bluff charge to run you off of something, be it cub's, a kill, a honey pot, a package of ho's ho's it found from a hiker, or a flower it likes. It does not really matter, YOU DONT KNOW ITS BLUFFING all you see is big ass bear charging at you, it might stop 3 feet from you or 3 inches from your face or it might just eat you. The point is you have no way of knowing so you have to act, and those actions depend on the situation do you reach for your pepper spray or you gun?? Cant answer that as it all depends on you, your party, your surroundings and most importantly the how the bear was acting before the charge, if it was lazy and mostly stand offish just after being startled, I might take the chance on the spry and that you were just a little to close for his liking. If he was being threatening, aggressive and posturing prior, I am going for the X-frame on my hip as time is very short and you only have a few fractions of a second to make that choice, and the wrong one will cost you or even your entire parties lives or great injury in the best of possible outcomes.

The main point I am trying to make is NONE of us were there, and given the circumstances that we know about and that seem to have been presented to the Grand Jury, I dont see how anyone can fault the man for defending his own life, even if Brown was only making a bluff charge how was Wilson to know, he only had a few fractions of a second to make that choice.... Here we are months latter with the benefit of time to think debate and consider other actions and outcomes. That is NOT fair to do that to ANYONE in this kind of situation let alone someone who's job it is to go out and look for trouble......