Fuck you Obama

[Schnitzer318is]

Driving is NOT A RIGHT its a privilege there for conditional purchase requirements can be attached if you wish to partake in said privilege. Being forced by the govt to PURCHASE something as a requirement of your being alive is a 100% totally different matter.

I included a scenario in my last post that fits your argument. You could allow hospitals to refuse service if payment is not possible. That sounds pretty barbaric to me, but hey... if that's what you want. I think health care is a right but to be afforded... must be paid for by everyone. Again, ideally the single payer would be ideal... but our government can not afford it with an 18 trillion dollar debt.

Did you know that American government is a republic not a democracy? This statement makes me think that you have no idea what you're talking about and are extremely ill informed.

I agree the country is a republic. The terms democracy and republic are used pretty interchangeably in political discussion (for better or worse), but if you want I can refer to it as a republic instead of a democracy.

Feel better? BTW, it's posts like yours that make it near impossible for individuals to have an intelligent conversation about politics. You can disagree with my ideas if you like, provide counter positions/information, but simple derision and condescension don't help your cause.

[mrsleeve]

LOL yeah ok ......... Just like the 9th and 10th amendments to the constitution right......

[z31maniac]

Driving is NOT A RIGHT its a privilege there for conditional purchase requirements can be attached if you wish to partake in said privilege. Being forced by the govt to PURCHASE something as a requirement of your being alive is a 100% totally different matter.

I wish we still had a truly representative republic, one in which senators didnt have to pander to the electorate and still were the voice of the states in federal govt and appointed by the state legislature's .

Idealistically, yes.

In reality? No.

Anywhere but the few largest cities in the country is public transport isn't a viable option.

[HarryPotter]

I see you bois are still having a good time.

[Matt-B]

I cant afford the insurance my job offers after the healthcare act was passed. So, i dont have any. I walk everyday and wash my hands sparingly. Have had strep once, in the last 10 years. Dont see a need for insurance, even though its unaffordable. I just pay cash, or payments for anything i might need. Cheaper then the "affordable healthcare"

[Vedubin01]

[jalopi]

Here's my thing about the auto insurance comparison - it's solid until you realize that you're not forced to buy a car. If you choose to buy a car then you're forced to purchase auto insurance. Technically still an active choice, just a forced one comes along with it.

I cant afford the insurance my job offers after the healthcare act was passed. So, i dont have any. I walk everyday and wash my hands sparingly. Have had strep once, in the last 10 years. Dont see a need for insurance, even though its unaffordable. I just pay cash, or payments for anything i might need. Cheaper then the "affordable healthcare"

FYI if you play things smart there really isn't any penalty to not buying the insurance. If you don't buy the insurance the IRS will withhold any tax refunds you're supposed to get. Just make sure you slightly underpay when tax season comes around and it's all good

[BraveUlysses]

I included a scenario in my last post that fits your argument. You could allow hospitals to refuse service if payment is not possible. That sounds pretty barbaric to me, but hey... if that's what you want. I think health care is a right but to be afforded... must be paid for by everyone. Again, ideally the single payer would be ideal... but our government can not afford it with an 18 trillion dollar debt.

Yes, it is affordable despite your misguided views on the debt. We're spending 17-18% of our entire GDP and twice per capita what other developed countries spend on healthcare and that could easily cover every single person.

I cant afford the insurance my job offers after the healthcare act was passed. So, i dont have any. I walk everyday and wash my hands sparingly. Have had strep once, in the last 10 years. Dont see a need for insurance, even though its unaffordable. I just pay cash, or payments for anything i might need. Cheaper then the "affordable healthcare"

It's really easy to stay healthy when you're young. All it takes is one accident that is not your fault and you could be looking at a debt so large that it could absolutely ruin your life.

Are you under 26? You could be covered by your parent's plan. You also may be eligible for subsidized healthcare through Washington's healthcare exchange.

[peter321]

Obama has never run the country lols

[Schnitzer318is]

Here's my thing about the auto insurance comparison - it's solid until you realize that you're not forced to buy a car. If you choose to buy a car then you're forced to purchase auto insurance. Technically still an active choice, just a forced one comes along with it.

I get what you guys are saying about personal choice. Trust me... in most areas of society I am 100% for personal responsibility. But you can't choose when you get injured or sick. And the cost of health care in this system is ridiculous... and not always scrupulous.

For example, I had a really bad pneumonia (was walking around with it for ~1.5 years before seeing a doctor). The doctor had his diagnosis with a $400 X-Ray. No problem... but to confirm the doc wants to run a dye CT. I have no idea what those can cost and was always on my parent's (retired military) Tricare coverage for any major hospitalizations before this. So I had not really been exposed to the wonders of our health care system from a financial stand point. Well, long story short... that 2 hour visit (20mins of which was with a doctor) was billed for a total of $13,000ish. WTF!!! The CT alone was $9000... for a test to simply confirm a diagnosis. I have read up on this and apparently that is a very common practice in hospitals. The docs are pressured to run more expensive tests even when not medically necessary.

Sorry for the length of the above, but my point is... had we not had health insurance it could have had serious financial implications. Then we had our first child a year later and that would have cost us another $20,000 due to complications. These two incidents together make up over half of a year's income for us. That's not really a fair system. It really made me think about the less fortunate.

Everyone NEEDS insurance... if we all paid into the system costs would much lower for coverage on both the insurance side (more payers to offset costs), and the caregiver's side (they would always get paid for procedures).

Yes, it is affordable despite your misguided views on the debt. We're spending 17-18% of our entire GDP and twice per capita what other developed countries spend on healthcare and that could easily cover every single person.

I disagree. Until the health care providers side is reformed... it is not affordable. GDP is not the government's money that has been spent but the public and private industry's. The taxes on it are the gov's... but at current rates that doesn't mean anything. Unless your 17-18% comment above is referring to gov't spending equal to 17-18% of GDP. If so I am guessing that is coming from Medicare and other programs? Please reference your source for the stats, it would help (everyone posting stats should do this btw) us to get a more clear view of your position.

And as I mentioned, try to keep the condescension to a minimum. If you feel my views on the debt are misguided... please elaborate as to how they are so. I, unlike almost everyone here it seems, try to keep an open mind and am always up for learning.

[The Dark Side of Will]

All people need health care. Period. People get sick, everyone does... so everyone should pay into the system.

Still confusing health care and health coverage.
Sick people don't need coverage... they need care.
What we *should* be doing is concentrating on making health care so cheap no one needs health coverage.
THEN health insurance can be more like auto insurance in that it's a hedge against risk, instead of a payment plan.

Driving is NOT A RIGHT its a privilege

[threadjack]
My paycheck bought my car, my taxes bought my roads... Why should it not be my right to drive my car on my roads?
[/threadjack]

[The Dark Side of Will]

And it was stripped from the states for a reason, because it was abused time and time again.

It wasn't "abused"... the election of senators was disruptive to the operation of state legislatures. Events similar to the flight of state legislators from Michigan to avoid a contentious vote weren't uncommon.

That being said, it could and should have been addressed differently. The voice of the State governments in the national government is VITAL in keeping the scope and power of the national government restrained, as we have seen demonstrated throughout the 20th century once that restraint was removed.

[BraveUlysses]

I disagree. Until the health care providers side is reformed... it is not affordable. GDP is not the government's money that has been spent but the public and private industry's. The taxes on it are the gov's... but at current rates that doesn't mean anything. Unless your 17-18% comment above is referring to gov't spending equal to 17-18% of GDP. If so I am guessing that is coming from Medicare and other programs? Please reference your source for the stats, it would help (everyone posting stats should do this btw) us to get a more clear view of your position.

And as I mentioned, try to keep the condescension to a minimum. If you feel my views on the debt are misguided... please elaborate as to how they are so. I, unlike almost everyone here it seems, try to keep an open mind and am always up for learning.

When I state our country's spending levels in a % of GDP it means exactly that, the percentage of our entire gross domestic product that is spent on healthcare which includes government and private expenditures.

I am not making the argument that the government should take over all healthcare spending at 17-18% of GDP, that is far too much of our entire GDP going to healthcare, especially compared to developed countries who cover every citizen with 100% coverage at half the % of GDP, which we seemingly cannot "afford".

Moving on, we can afford it as a country if we make the changes that we need to, but the political will is not there for much of the country, mostly due to the fuck you, got mine attitude that is so prevalent here.

Some of the changes made by ACA are positive steps in this direction but most of them do not go far enough to solve rising costs. My view is that we should extend medicare to all citizens.

As far as the national debt goes, try reading this:

Does the $16 Trillion Debt Matter? A Remedial Lesson in Public Finance Economics for the GOP (the CATO institute is a conservative think tank)

[The Dark Side of Will]

For example, I had a really bad pneumonia (was walking around with it for ~1.5 years before seeing a doctor). The doctor had his diagnosis with a $400 X-Ray. No problem... but to confirm the doc wants to run a dye CT. I have no idea what those can cost and was always on my parent's (retired military) Tricare coverage for any major hospitalizations before this. So I had not really been exposed to the wonders of our health care system from a financial stand point. Well, long story short... that 2 hour visit (20mins of which was with a doctor) was billed for a total of $13,000ish. WTF!!! The CT alone was $9000... for a test to simply confirm a diagnosis. I have read up on this and apparently that is a very common practice in hospitals. The docs are pressured to run more expensive tests even when not medically necessary.

The crux of my argument bolded above.
It's expensive BECAUSE insurance pays for it. Because insurance pays for it, the money's always there. Because insurance pays for it, you never negotiated necessity or price with the medical establishment. You said that he had the diagnosis with a $400 X-ray... Would you have let him do anything else if you were paying? Why?
(Also, why does 5 minutes of machine time cost $400?)

Everyone NEEDS insurance...

NO! Everyone needs health care; we just also need a system structured such that providers compete to lower prices. In other words, we need to GET RID OF health insurance as it's currently understood and make it more like auto insurance.

[z31maniac]

Here's my thing about the auto insurance comparison - it's solid until you realize that you're not forced to buy a car. If you choose to buy a car then you're forced to purchase auto insurance. Technically still an active choice, just a forced one comes along with it.

As I mentioned, public transportation is only viable in very few cities.

We aren't nearly as small or as densely populated as Europe or SE Asia, where the public transportation systems are much more developed.

There are no bus stops within 6 miles of my house, taking the bus would take over 2 hours each way (due to the narrow selection of routes), and would see me walking/biking down miles of 4 lane roads that have little to no shoulder or sidewalk.

Taking a cab 2 ways, 5 days a week would be more expensive than a car.

And I live in a metro area of 1 million people.