Equal pay for equal work

[Vedubin01]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...8ac_story.html


White House salaries by gender

The White House employs 456 people. The combined payroll is nearly $38 million. More men than women hold positions with higher salaries, while most lower paying jobs are held by women. Salary ranges below are in thousands.

[smooth]

The "equal work" part is a misnomer. If you actually look at statistics, a higher percentage of men get paid on average more than women because men tend to go into higher paying fields like engineering, upper management, etc. So yes, technically men get paid more, however, it's not because of what feminists tend to beat into young, naive girls' heads of sexism and discrimination.

interesting non-sequitur

feminists argue that pervasive and endemic barriers explain *why* women don't pursue those careers

[mccor023]

Someone who is in your wife's line of work got a cool car which makes you two jelly and you consider it valued as much as your house.....



And from there we get unequal pay and wings to the argument?

Admittedly not my best argument founded by cold hard facts. But, this was the event that caused me to pay attention. When everyone else in the office is driving 20k-30k cars and the 1 guy in the office is driving a $130k car you start to wonder. And no its not because he's in charge, or better qualified, or family money, or he lives in a dumpster. Maybe its because he asked for a fair market salary where the ladies did not have the confidence to do so.

My argument remains that men can be and are paid more than female counterparts. My explanation is that men have the confidence to ask for more money. This is a general statement an I realize this does not speak to everyone.

[Ether-D]

If men have the confidence to ask for more money, could that also be why they may be better at certain things (worse at others?)? Playing devil's advocate here.

I think it's partly about aptitude. When you're just better (or worse) at certain things than other people for no real reason. Women mechanics are extremely rare. Is it because their parents gave them dolls instead of trucks? Or is it that men tend to be more interested in things like that? I'm not saying all men are interested in this, but generally, it's something men seem to be interested in and women seem not to be interested. There are tons more women nurses than men. Why? Maybe because women (generally) are better at caring for people. Does this make us not equal? Nope. Just (generally) interested in different things and because of that, better at certain things, and deserving of higher pay at certain things (men and women included in that statement). Now, women nurses don't seem to be getting paid more than male nurses,but Idk, maybe.

I just hear this argument on npr and it's usually framed around "Why aren't there more women CEO's? Answer - It's because women aren't treated as equals!!!" Well, maybe women just don't make great CEO's (generally). Is this inherently wrong? Or just a cold fact?

[long tall eta]

imho. as a chef in an atlantic city casino where it's a union environment, i find that although women get paid the same, they do have their flaws that can support an argument why they shouldn't. they can't do the same heavy lifting as a man and they also break down faster when the going gets tough. i'm not saying they should make less, i'm just saying.

[smooth]

If men have the confidence to ask for more money, could that also be why they may be better at certain things (worse at others?)? Playing devil's advocate here.

I think it's partly about aptitude. When you're just better (or worse) at certain things than other people for no real reason. Women mechanics are extremely rare. Is it because their parents gave them dolls instead of trucks? Or is it that men tend to be more interested in things like that? I'm not saying all men are interested in this, but generally, it's something men seem to be interested in and women seem not to be interested. There are tons more women nurses than men. Why? Maybe because women (generally) are better at caring for people. Does this make us not equal? Nope. Just (generally) interested in different things and because of that, better at certain things, and deserving of higher pay at certain things (men and women included in that statement). Now, women nurses don't seem to be getting paid more than male nurses,but Idk, maybe.

I just hear this argument on npr and it's usually framed around "Why aren't there more women CEO's? Answer - It's because women aren't treated as equals!!!" Well, maybe women just don't make great CEO's (generally). Is this inherently wrong? Or just a cold fact?

you repeated a bunch of (inaccurate) stereotypes, affirmed them rather than questioning them, and then wondered why they persist and influence pay differentials between men and women.

If you examined your question about women mechanics more critically, why would you believe that women become less interested in becoming mechanics and more interested in becoming care-givers due to genetics instead of social pressures?

You acknowledge that female parents are more likely to give them dolls to play with instead of trucks, that they are "better" at "caring" for others than males (re-articulating the same values and beliefs that females grow up in this country hearing, experiencing, and eventually believing), but then sweep it all under the rug with the conclusion that perhaps that's just the way things are due to "nature." Arguing that perhaps things are the way they are because that's just the way they are sounds like a relatively hollow explanation.

[Ether-D]

you repeated a bunch of (inaccurate) stereotypes, affirmed them rather than questioning them, and then wondered why they persist and influence pay differentials between men and women.

Tell me which ones are inaccurate, if you please. And I absolutely did question them.

If you examined your question about women mechanics more critically, why would you believe that women become less interested in becoming mechanics and more interested in becoming care-givers due to genetics instead of social pressures?

Really? Why wouldn't you think it's genetics (at least partly)?

For me, it is partly because I have 5-year-old twins, one is a boy and one is a girl, and I can tell you from direct experience, that what boys and girls like is (generally) very different right from the start. It isn't all nature, but it is mostly nature. For example, my daughter always wants to help me make dinner. Is that because she sees her mom make dinner all the time? No, because I have my kids half of the time and I cook more than my ex-wife does. She wants to help me cook because she likes to do it. My boy couldn't care less about cooking, but when I'm in the shop, he's right there learning as much as he can. This is completely unscientific. I know.

You acknowledge that female parents are more likely to give them dolls to play with instead of trucks…

Nope, I said "parents".

…that they are "better" at "caring" for others than males (re-articulating the same values and beliefs that females grow up in this country hearing, experiencing, and eventually believing), but then sweep it all under the rug with the conclusion that perhaps that's just the way things are due to "nature." Arguing that perhaps things are the way they are because that's just the way they are sounds like a relatively hollow explanation.

Yep, that's why I'm asking others for their opinion. All you did was criticize mine. Do you have any reasons why you believe what you believe?

Do you believe that we would all just be the same with the exception of vaginas and penises if we were raised without gender as any consideration? That's what it seems like you are saying to me. And if that did turn out to be true, the opposite sex would get real boring real fast for us straight folks.

I don't think it's fair that women get paid less when they do the exact same job. I don't think it's fair that I'm the last gender out of the burning building or sinking ship.

[smooth]

Nope, I said "parents".

My spellchecker dropped the possessive s.

should have been written as "females' parents" rather than "female parents"

the direct answer to your other questions about your boy's experience vs. your girl's experience is that, yes, children model after their parents they closely identify with. you hold these things you're writing to be true, so not only did your daughter learn from an early age what her mother did and expects her to do (and vice versa for your son) you formally and informally respond in ways that you may not even be aware of that indicate to them that they are acting gender normative.

If you want to argue that your daughter has a genetic predisposition for enjoying cooking and your son has a genetic predisposition for enjoying working in the shop then what would be the source of such a genetic difference?

for one thing, there isn't a "cooking gene" nor is there a "work shop gene". and for another, in your case more problematic, your twins have the same genes, which tends to undermine the entire position you are claiming regarding genetic variance.

Your account is a perfect example we would use in a scientific study to demonstrate that gender norms are not based on genetics.

[cale]

I have to disagree with several ideas in this thread. As a dude who is married to a very smart hard working lady I can tell you for a fact she is being paid at least 20% less than her male counterparts. To give an idea her co-worker equal credentials equal experience, but he was able to recently pick up a 911 turbo worth as much as out house.
I know this is an odd thing to point out, but it is what really opened my eyes to the whole salary thing. We discovered several years ago someone hired 2 years after her was being paid the same her, but I brushed it off. Being the supportive husband that I am and also a guy who wants a Porshe one day I believe confidence is a big issue. Personally when I want a raise i have the confidence to ask for it or find a different job. I encourage my wife to do the same, and maybe she is a rare rare case, but she she is intimidated into thinking all is fair.
So where I agree there are 2 side to every story, and each story might have its own twists. When a company sees an opportunity to under pay someone they will.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, legitimate comparisons have proven that inequality on the macro scale is a myth.

His ability to purchase an expensive vehicle says nothing about him having a larger salary. Perhaps he has made solid investments, maybe he inherited a large chunk of change, or more than like..maybe he's got a shit load of his life on credit. Being in the military I'm aware of what everyone around me is making. You've got Colonels driving $5000 Volvos they've owned since new and Privates driving $50,000 trucks. I'll let you wager a guess who's making $150k/year and who's making less than 1/3rd of that. What's on the surface is not always an accurate indicator of what lies beneath.

You've debunked your own argument by admitting your wife is passive and accepts, or more accurately gives in to the belief that all is fair. That person who's starting salary is equal to her current one likely demanded a larger figure when hired. It has nothing to do with the company underpaying, it has to do with your wife undervaluing herself.

[Ether-D]

If you want to argue that your daughter has a genetic predisposition for enjoying cooking and your son has a genetic predisposition for enjoying working in the shop then what would be the source of such a genetic difference?

for one thing, there isn't a "cooking gene" nor is there a "work shop gene". and for another, in your case more problematic, your twins have the same genes, which tends to undermine the entire position you are claiming regarding genetic variance.

Your account is a perfect example we would use in a scientific study to demonstrate that gender norms are not based on genetics.

I did say "genetics" in the comment you're referring to, I meant "aptitude".

Would you mind redoing your rebuttal?

[agent]

My spellchecker dropped the possessive s.

Yet it doesn't pick up on the fact that you don't capitalize the first letters of your sentences...?

[Blitzkrieg]

Go make me a sandwich.

[Hooffenstein HD]

When everyone else in the office is driving 20k-30k cars and the 1 guy in the office is driving a $130k car you start to wonder.
.

Just because someone lives a different lifestyle, or manages their finances better than your wife what makes you think they earn more?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Hey r3v. I may be some kind of bad person for saying this, but it seems to me that if women were getting paid 80% of what dudes get paid, for doing the same amount of work, companies would just be full of women workers. Why pay a man more than a woman? Just to have a dude around? It doesn't make sense from a "bottom line" point of view.

Tell me why I'm bad and horribly wrong.

What I've read and been told from more than one source is that women get paid less because they tend to ask for less when the offer is made.

[The Dark Side of Will]

not only did your daughter learn from an early age what her mother did and expects her to do

He just told you that BOTH parents cook, and that he does it more than baby momma does.

If you want to argue that your daughter has a genetic predisposition for enjoying cooking and your son has a genetic predisposition for enjoying working in the shop then what would be the source of such a genetic difference?

Why does one have two X chromosomes and the other has an X and a Y?

for one thing, there isn't a "cooking gene" nor is there a "work shop gene".

How do you know?

and for another, in your case more problematic, your twins have the same genes, which tends to undermine the entire position you are claiming regarding genetic variance.

Except that they have different genes because they're different genders.