Standing Rock vs Dakota pipeline

[cale]

it's not the website, idiot. you're citing a law that should never have existed as justification for your argument. is it that hard for you to understand?

I cited something relative to your citizenship, decay. I'm fully aware you disagree with the law, it's still the law of the land and you're subject to it. Your nations definition of it is not unlike that of your allies. Satisfied, or do you prefer to remain in your own little bubble?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1

1 Terrorism: interpretation.

(1)In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where—

(a)the action falls within subsection (2),

(b)the use or threat is designed to influence the government [F1or an international governmental organisation] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and

(c)the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious [F2, racial] or ideological cause.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr09_6/p3.html

In Canada, section 83.01 of the Criminal Code[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" with the intention of intimidating the public "…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act."

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2002/jul/frameterr622en00030007.pdf

...given their nature or context, may seriously damage a country or an international organisation where committed with the aim of: seriously intimidating a population; or unduly compelling a Government or international organisation to perform or abstain from performing any act; or seriously destabilising or destroying the fundamental political, constitutional, economic or social structures of a country or an international organisation.

[mrsleeve]

Ok, here we go.


I have been hesitant to bring the terrorist argument into this due to the fact that no one did get hurt and nothing but some pipe/fittings got damaged, though did imply that designation with the tie to the OKC bomber, may haps I should have used a Ayers/Dorn and the weather underground/SDS bombings in the late 1960's early 70's would have been far more appropriate comparison.

All that said, this sabotage/terrorist action was not an isolated incident, it happened on 3 separate valve settings in IA, so the potential for huge environmental impact was magnified 3 fold. The cost to fix those actions, somewhere in the neighborhood of 3/4-1 mill, per site. Also the people who did it are very luck they were not turned into a pink mist (smear implies there might be something left) even though the line was not loaded with product, it very well could have had a "hard pack" of Nitrogen on it that if released could have hurt or killed people not from the energy dump, but from the gas cloud. (and it likely did have 50-100 (or more) PSI of "dry air" on it). VERY VERY lucky idiots, is all I have to say on it.

Until you have been on a project like this, you can say all you want about operational safety, but until you see the terabytes of data that are collected during each phase of construction and amount of highly paid, highly experienced people. That paid to just watch to make sure the construction contractor is doing things the way they are supposed to be done and document the day to day construction activities its nothing more than that persons opinion and ass chattering in the breeze .

Decay buddy, I know what the Natives wanted....... MONEY, they were offered 10mil in lease, fees, to cross their res. The told ETP to fuck off and would take no less than 20mil, and wanted royalties for every barrel of product shipped . ETP declined that demand, and went to the FEDS, they will take the money (since they had to get Corp of Engineers approval to cross the RES and go under the lake anyway) and let the line cross federal land to the northern recognized (for well over 125 years) boarder of the res.

If your ilk and the natives really cared about protecting the water you would not have left the 1000 tons of toxic trash, human waste, and so on, all over the squatters camp to be washed into the fucking lake with the spring rains and snow melt, that camp and the way it was left posed a bigger risk to the "water" than the DAPL will likely EVERY cause. But thats ok dont worry the rest of us federal tax paying citizens will pick up the clean up and disposal tab since the Corp Of engineers had to clean up your mess for you, and that comes out of their operational budget, Your ilk would not have torched cars and equipment to allow that run off, and fumes to end up in the ecosystem either. Some water protectors you guys are, you lose sight of the water due to the fucking lake you are in.

Your defense that oh no one got hurt so its ok........ Is no different that the drunk driver that was trying to get home from the bar for the 100th time an gets pulled over wheeling into his driveway. Its not a fucking defense for trying to cause a fucking disaster of stupid proportions just so you can say I told you so, that becuase someone saw it before it was loaded with product, and no one got hurt that its just ok. I really hope they catch these tools and toss them in jail for a long while We have enough examples of old infrastructure failures from age, or mother nature as the cause, but to go out and WILLFULLY attempt to cause this kinda thing is just dumbfounding to me.

Its a small industry by # employed (across all trades involved), but every one of us works too fucking hard to do things right, and make sure we are building the rest of you a safe line to live and work around. We all take great pride in our work, even though its never seen, and the fruits are taken for granted by the rest of you. I dont take kindly to people trying take food off my table because they "think" they know better, but you are entitled to your opinions, but I dont think you would like if if a bunch of us construction hands got all uppity in your office and started telling you how you should not be doing your job. Honestly I dont think you would last 14 days in my world.

You really should just shut your mouth about pipelines I have more than made my case on more than 1 occasion, and yes there is always room to improve, you cant assume just because something can happen it will happen. You want to protest a pipeline, I suggest you look to some of the old shit thats been in the ground for 75 years and still in service not the new shit going in today.

[gwb72tii]

there is more going on here than protesting a pipeline with decay. imho the roots of his anger aren't environment related.
and decay, i honor your service, even if you think it was for the wrong reason (oil). but to advocate willful destruction of property and perhaps innocent life makes no sense at all.
i hope you can find peace before you do something you have to live with for the rest of your life

[decay]

i hope you can find peace before you do something you have to live with for the rest of your life

the reason i came back from standing rock unscathed and unarrested is... i'm sort of good at taking calculated risks when i've decided direct action is necessary. shit, i got hurt worse at the last punk show i went to on sunday night.

wasn't my first rodeo, bud.

would *i* have done the sabotage we are discussing? probably not- but i understand why the involved parties did.

sleeve: all i have to say to you is you can suck my dick about it if you think i'm not allowed to have a voice about this. we will not be silenced.

[mrsleeve]

You can have your "voice" I have no issues with that. but you would be far more effective if it was at least sort of informed on the topic, and understood the implications of what you advocate for before jumping on a band wagon, that has implications that affect everyone else.

I have likely forgotten more than you will ever know about Pipelines.

[marshallnoise]

Digging heels. This is fun to watch.

[decay]

probably true, but the pipeline itself and construction thereof is really only one element of the discussion here. i think you might not be so well-informed on the others...

[mrsleeve]

Ahhh the ever shifting of the goal posts, fairly sure I a rather well informed,

[marshallnoise]

Denial is strong with this one.

[decay]

it's not shifting goalposts to say that there is more than one factor involved in a discussion.

marshall, would you actually contribute something meaningful? you being sleeve's cheerleader is kinda pathetic.

[marshallnoise]

it's not shifting goalposts to say that there is more than one factor involved in a discussion.

marshall, would you actually contribute something meaningful? you being sleeve's cheerleader is kinda pathetic.

What is there to contribute? You are doing a fine job of destroying your argument without either one of our help.

There is no justification for endorsing destruction of private property. Even less justification when the environment you love would get destroyed and potentially killing people along the way.

I know you think this is a war and as such casualties are expected, but its not a war Don Quixote. Its a windmill. You would do better to send money to the Sierra Club, Peta and Planned Parenthood.

[decay]

well, as i had nothing to do with the event in question, obviously i'm not the only one who has this stance.

there is a justification- petrochemical companies don't get to just define sovereign land as their private property at their convenience.

as far as donations:
sierra club is a bit monolithic- i'm meh on them, but i wouldn't discourage anyone else from donating if they choose to.
i'm not so aligned with peta; i sorta like eating meat but do agree that its production should be ethical and responsible.
i support planned parenthood by utilizing their services; std testing and birth control if i enter into a committed relationship.

admittedly, i should concede that a mess was left behind; but it was not the veterans' camp, and i'm sorry, but i wasn't going to spend my entire time out there doing police call with a garbage bag, i had more important shit to do.

[naplesE30]

I have an optometrist I can suggest for your nearsightedness.

By supporting those who destroy private property you are doing your cause much more harm than good. Much like the looters at a peaceful march, you are destroying the Optics of what may be a well intentioned movement. You're never going to sway anyone to your side by resorting to Anarchy. If I were of the same goals as you, this would piss me off more than the actual pipeline as it completely undermines your supposed cause. Even the tribe could see that, and hence wamted everyone to leave the camps.......

LOL that a environmentalist had better things to do than clean litter and trash caused by said environmentalists. Fucking precious little nugget of info there. I am more inclined to think you are just wanting to be a part of some type of action than actually having a core belief in any type of justice.


Since you seem fond of quoting MLK: he didnt win anyone to his side by slashing bus tires. He won people over by being peacefull at all cost, hence looking like the victims they truely were. If he had advocated destruction of property do you truely believe his cause would have been advanced?

[decay]

LOL that a environmentalist had better things to do than clean litter and trash caused by said environmentalists.

it was 10-20 below zero with 40mph winds when i was there. i was building shelters so people didn't get hypothermia. yes i wish they had not left a mess behind, but at the time, that was a secondary concern to making sure they didn't die. (how's the weather in FL, btw?)

you people sure do love your assumptions.

i have explained my political motivations in this thread as many times as sleeve has made his arguments for how the pipeline is justified and being done correctly. you can go back and read; i'm tired of retyping them.

[naplesE30]

Yes your political motivations are unquestioned. However, your actions supporting such movements are questionable? That is why I question your sincerity? Maybee we are not understanding you well, but much of what you believe seems to be in direct contrast with your actions or advocating of such actions..... protect property by destroying property? Protect the environment by polluting environment? Akin to an alcoholic quiting the bottle by drinking himself to death.

Your method, and philosophy adoption is not going to affect change. I am all for peaceful and lawfull protest. I may need to take part in it some day. But your hurting your own cause with your current course of action. You may not see it because you are entrenched in it, but as an outsider it angers and turns people away from the cause. The vast majority of people do not like destruction of property, or to be inconvenienced. Just my observation, take it for what its worth.

Also, I think we may have had a frost that week, but Im sure we managed to get into the 70's for the high.