Standing Rock vs Dakota pipeline

[decay]

Do we say the same thing when Black Lives Matter decide to riot?

I think so. That would be the reason the veterans' op-order repeated 3 different times, beginning, middle, and end:

No drugs. No alcohol. No weapons.

I can only be responsible for what I am participating in. But it's my expectation that everyone still out with me will contribute and watch out for each other (and among vets, that includes the occasional "hey dumbass, knock that shit off").

[decay]

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/15/505658553/pipeline-spill-adds-to-concerns-about-dakota-access-pipeline

The Belle Fourche pipeline leak is the largest in North Dakota since 2013. But the same company that owns and runs the pipeline was involved in another oil spill in Montana in 2015 that leaked 30,000 gallons of crude into the river. At one point, tests showed traces of oil in the local drinking water.

sleeve- not baiting you here man, but we definitely have a difference of opinion on whether or not this fits the definition of "disaster".

180,000 gallons.

[mrsleeve]

Look, is it a bad thing YES of course it is... and when you say 180,000 of anything it sounds scary and big and lots of it blah blah blah. I am not arguing that this is like dumping over you drain bucket in the driveway by accident after you change your oil in your car.

What I am saying is lets put this into perspective and into the scope of reality here. Dumping 4300 barrels of oil in front of your house is a MUCH bigger deal than dumping that same 4300 Barrels in front of my house (do I want 4300 barrels of oil in front of my house NO of course not just making the heavy urban vs very rural situation). Its a big deal in both cases and needs to be cleaned up to the standards of both state and federal oversight agencies if not over and above. In front of your house its going to effect many many many 1000's of people who live/work/commute with in close proximity, vs a couple dozen around my house at most. Its actually going to be much harder to clean up where you live as the access to where it goes is going to much harder to get to (leaky storm sewer), and its going to cause havoc with traffic and daily life for MONTHS. Vs just a few vac trucks out sucking up the sludge and a couple dozers and excavators piling up contaminated soils and brush and loading it into trucks hauling it off near my house.

Where this current issue is going on it took a number of days to even find it, I would say thats a bit more rural than where even I live. It will be very easy to clean up once they get it contained by comparison to on your doorstep. So again I define disaster by how many people are both directly and indirectly affected, how much shit gets fucked up, and the ability to get it cleaned up effectively. This gathering break is not going affect that many people in general day to day life, its not going to sully much of anything in the way of "unique" ecco-system (Price William Sound,/ other major water body / or geographically unique feature) or destroy that much in the way of productive real estate in this part of the ND, and it can be cleaned up effectively in a good and timely manner. Hell given the frozen ground it will likely help keep it from soaking in too far past upper most few inches.

Yup I dont remember the specifics of that other failure other than it was a thin wall 12" that was older than the dirt it was buried in. Also iirc the local drinking water samples were pulled from an area that draws its potable water from the Yellowstone river not too far down stream of the failure. Yes this outfit does not have a good current safety record, I agree and needs to be addressed. You have to remember like I keep saying, you cant directly compare gathering line and transmission, its akin to saying a lion and tiger are the same animal. Both are big cats, both are similar in appearance and do similar things and are closely related but at the same time are 2 totally different animals. Even the old shit in the ground for the last 30 years on up to 80, thats WAY past design life, transmission has far more regulatory requirements for not just day to day operations and integrity requirements but construction standards than do most gathering systems.

Look at the enbridge 6B line rupture in Marshal MI in 2010. That was 26k Barrels (1.1m Gal) and over the course of the last 5 years and about 800m spent on clean up costs, it was effectively cleaned up, and enbridge has invested about a Billion in dig up and relay of the line that was installed in 60's. They are getting geared up for a full relay, in the coming years, as well as costing them 180ish m in fines penalties and new regulatory mandated safety measures on the rest of their system. Still a drop in the bucket compared to what naturally seeps into the Gulf of Mexico alone from natural fishers that total 2-4m barrels a year

[decay]

So again I define disaster by how many people are both directly and indirectly affected

i stand firm on the point that that's not a good reason to reroute the pipeline through treaty-protected native land. we agreed they were a sovereign nation- so we need their permission, and we don't have it. it really is that simple. do you get that i consider this a patriotic thing? i'm holding america to its word.

Yes this outfit does not have a good current safety record, I agree and needs to be addressed.

but we found some common ground there.

[Lodsin]

@Sleeve
100% NDE, as in 100% inspection? If so that's pretty impressive!

Haven't worked in that kind of field for a few years and wasn't in it for too long, but we were doing 10% NDT.

[mrsleeve]

100% NDE and 100% Inspection its been that way for a long time on transmission work.

[Lodsin]

100% NDE and 100% Inspection its been that way for a long time on transmission work.

I find that very impressive, and I'm glad I don't have to do it!

[mrsleeve]

You xray hand too......

[decay]

today is load-out.

i have cold-weather clothes, redundant power and internet (att/verizon), some humanitarian supplies that didn't make it out for the first round, oh, and my riot gear is kinda awesome.

i needed a vehicle big enough for my 6'2" self to sleep in and was looking for something like a GMC Tahoe. what they had was "Lincoln Navigator or similar".

get in loser, we're stopping a pipeline.

[mrsleeve]

Just going to leave this right here

http://www.abc2news.com/news/region/baltimore-city/2-dead-in-tanker-crash-on-i-95-near-dowtown-baltimore

[decay]

Just going to leave this right here

http://www.abc2news.com/news/region/...town-baltimore

i am sorry to see that happen. seriously.

if you are posting this to point out that road/rail transport is not as safe- i asked questions there, and i got that part when you and nando explained it.

but that doesn't mean pipeline is good enough. and i think it would be a good thing if we reduced our consumption to the point where responsibly maintaining the existing infrastructure was enough.

i do honestly want to see our country start leading the way in EV usage, and reducing petroleum consumption to commercial and industrial needs- not consumer needs.

i know you hate the EVs, sleeve, but you gotta take a ride in a tesla, man. my boss a few startups ago had the P70, not even the best one, and it was fucking *quick*. and i would say about on par with a 7-series for build quality, comfort, and luxury.

i see electric fedex trucks around home all the time, because for local delivery? they are a better, more energy-efficient, more cost-effective, and more low-maintenance solution to the task at hand. long-haul they don't work for, i get that. we're both engineers, we both understand that there is no one magic solution to every use case or requirement out there.

we're never going to make petroleum go away. i know that. but some of us are tired of seeing the results of our dependence on it, like war and oil spills.

[decay]

i had to get a toyota land cruiser for a rental- best "4wd vehicle i can sleep in" i could find. so i *do* recognize the use case for vehicles like this. i'm not going out there in a goddamned prius.

but- let's take this back to e30-land for a few minutes-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX-_azD2vNo

that green e30 has destroyed *everything* i've seen it go up against, unqualified. M6, GT-R, 911. bye. and it was built 5 years ago with battery technology that has since become obsolete because we found solutions with even more energy density (LiFePo4, unless he upgraded to that since the last time i looked).

[mrsleeve]

Really you found a 200 series to rent...... Whats that costing you perday lol... And a one of the most fuel ineffincant rigs built, that said prolly THE best rig you could pick to take you into BFE in 22 below weather and 2 feet of snow, that is on the market in this country. Just you better bring some fuel along or have some resupply at camp because keeping it warm and feeding that 496HP 3UR-FE is going to be interesting given the stance you have taken with this all this. Fair warning, your going to really really want a 200 series after this.

[decay]

it was about $1700 total for the rental. which is about the same amount my friend network donated via paypal to support me on this. so basically, they got transport and i got everything else.

and i actually asked for american, but i agree that i landed on the right truck. fuel cost is in the budget.

and did you read what i said earlier, dude? i am not saying we should cease *all* use of petroleum. i don't want your job to go away. i want us to manage our consumption and distribution network more responsibly, and when what i have to do is this- then, a big-ass v8 4wd is justified for the 2 weeks i need it. you know i drove humvees in the army and enjoyed those too, right? yes- you and i need trucks. linda the secretary/hairdresser would be fine with a little 4-door EV to get her to work.

and if we can also have a car-guy conversation about this- toyota's cars are boring as fuck (except the FR-S/86 which was really a subaru), but their trucks are quality products. on my last vacation i rented a 4-runner and went to borrego springs and the salton sea in southern california, and that thing was damned good for playing rally driver on desert trails. it handled on loose surface in a very "do what i mean", intuitive, kind of way. fiancee-at-the-time was scared but i had confidence driving that thing.

also goddamn do the new ones really have 500hp? i mean it moves, but it basically just does what i expect it to do. doesn't feel like that much power. this thing must be fucking heavy.

[decay]

that said. here's a story of how i had fun in a petrol-powerered vehicle.

so when i went to iraq our comm platoon brought over equipment called JNN. big armored shell that contains a bunch of computer equipment and goes on the back of one of the two-seat humvees. there were two of those.

the JNN shells weigh several tons, so those two-seat humvees get the turbo diesel engine rather than just the regular diesel.

when we got there, we immediately pulled the JNN shells off of the trucks, sat them on the ground, and emplaced them, and used the turbo lightweight humvees as runabouts.

that shit was awesome.

i like trucks. i don't like seeing san francisco yuppies driving them for status, or more frequently, road superiority, when they don't need them.