American Indians Still Getting a Raw Deal

[marshallnoise]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur0YWomy5YU

Basically posting this because I have mentioned these things BEFORE this video was created in a thread that was shut down.

And people are going to poo-poo the source because they don't like Dennis Prager. I am ok with that cause people's view of Dennis Prager doesn't change hard facts and reality.

[mbonder]

I didn't know that much about the trust system, interesting video for only being 5 minutes long.

[decay]

it *is* the government that's the problem. always has been.

but this video is not in alignment with your previous statement that they should just completely take over... has your position changed?

(aside: i wish she'd say "native" rather than "indian"; referring to america's indigenous people that way is an indicator of ignorance.)

[mbonder]

After watching the video it has become clear that the current system is a half measure. Either give the Native population full autonomy (which the government won't do) or make them wholly part of the country so they have total control over their land like any other private citizen. This would allow the Native Americans to utilize the largest store of value for most people, land ownership.

[marshallnoise]

it *is* the government that's the problem. always has been.

but this video is not in alignment with your previous statement that they should just completely take over... has your position changed?

(aside: i wish she'd say "native" rather than "indian"; referring to america's indigenous people that way is an indicator of ignorance.)

What I advocated was making Indians (just to piss you off) full citizens. That, by their current situation, is the opposite of "completely taking over." The video is the another side of the same coin. Both positions, either restoring 100% citizenship and dismantling the reservation system or restoring property rights, does the exact same thing.

Referring to Indians as Indians or American Indians is not a sign of ignorance. You just don't like it. Is it ignorant to call black people black? Its not like she is calling them "redman" for god's sake.

EDIT: The whole "gotcha" thing about names and titles is so stupid and really just shows how shallow the conversation has gotten if you get to that point.

[marshallnoise]

After watching the video it has become clear that the current system is a half measure. Either give the Native population full autonomy (which the government won't do) or make them wholly part of the country so they have total control over their land like any other private citizen. This would allow the Native Americans to utilize the largest store of value for most people, land ownership.

Yep.

[SkiFree]

r make them wholly part of the country so they have total control over their land like any other private citizen.

I didn't watch the video, but in going down this route.... would it mean that they would then be subject to their local and federal laws? Would that not mean their revenue-rich casinos would, in many cases, have to be shut down?

I get that it may be a short term loss, long term gain kind of deal, but how do you convince the few natives that are making a fair amount of money (and often redistributing it to others) to give up their relative prosperity to give them all a "chance" at greater financial freedom.

Isn't the land in most cases not of much value in the first place? If the land was used for residential/commercial growth that would mean less for hunting and raising animals.

One of my very good friends is a native american. He took the path to full US citizenship, graduated college, and now handles environmental planning for a mining company. One could argue that this has been more beneficial to his tribe than sticking around.

[Dagamus(NM)]

I was at a bar in Pojoaque New Mexico last weekend. There was a native fella drinking white wine (probably owned the place) who asked why Indians were here first.

He said because we had reservations.

Pretty funny. Most natives that are offended by being called Indians are just dirty white people.

Here we have a mix of reservations and pueblos. Many pueblos are reservations but not all. The difference being whether or not people were relocated to them from other parts of the country. Those that did not have people relocated are simply whichever pueblo they have been for however long they have been here.

[cale]

Referring to Indians as Indians or American Indians is not a sign of ignorance. You just don't like it. Is it ignorant to call black people black? Its not like she is calling them "redman" for god's sake.

It has a lot more to do with not liking it, is has to do with the mislabeling of a huge group of peoples for centuries. It's also so ingrained into culture and politics down there that it's become accepted. Calling a Native an Indian up here could likely be met with a sore jaw.

[decay]

What I advocated was making Indians (just to piss you off) full citizens. That, by their current situation, is the opposite of "completely taking over."

no it is *not*, and the reason you're failing to understand that is that you don't get that they... just don't want the "gift" you're trying to give.

and go ahead and try and piss me off; you're just making yourself look ignorant. as a software engineer, i work with a lot of people from india. those are indians. indigenous people of america are exactly that; native americans.

[marshallnoise]

It has a lot more to do with not liking it, is has to do with the mislabeling of a huge group of peoples for centuries. It's also so ingrained into culture and politics down there that it's become accepted. Calling a Native an Indian up here could likely be met with a sore jaw.

Its just much to do about nothing. Columbus thought he found the West Indies, called them Indians. He was mistaken. The name stuck. No one in their right mind would confuse a red dot Indian for a North American Indian. Semantics. But whatever floats their boat. Its not a slur no matter what way you look at it.

no it is *not*, and the reason you're failing to understand that is that you don't get that they... just don't want the "gift" you're trying to give.

and go ahead and try and piss me off; you're just making yourself look ignorant. as a software engineer, i work with a lot of people from india. those are indians. indigenous people of america are exactly that; native americans.

Freedom is not a gift; its a right. And I hardly think decay alone has the pulse on what Indians want and don't want.

No matter what, its about damned time everyone stand on their own two legs in this country. If that means restoring a peoples' full rights to be individuals with all the opportunities out there they can take, then that's part of the solution.

Decay, so long as you are ok with holding Indians in such low regard, as the video stated, to keep them as wards of the state, by all means, have at it. Poor Indians, can't take care of themselves, have to have the government manage their resources for them. They are too stupid, right decay?

[mbonder]

I didn't watch the video, but in going down this route.... would it mean that they would then be subject to their local and federal laws? Would that not mean their revenue-rich casinos would, in many cases, have to be shut down?

I get that it may be a short term loss, long term gain kind of deal, but how do you convince the few natives that are making a fair amount of money (and often redistributing it to others) to give up their relative prosperity to give them all a "chance" at greater financial freedom.

Isn't the land in most cases not of much value in the first place? If the land was used for residential/commercial growth that would mean less for hunting and raising animals.

One of my very good friends is a native american. He took the path to full US citizenship, graduated college, and now handles environmental planning for a mining company. One could argue that this has been more beneficial to his tribe than sticking around.

I don't think they would have to, why can't an exception be made to continue to allow them to operate? When smoking indoors was outlawed in NJ, exceptions were made for the casinos as well as several different types of tobacco stores that had indoor smoking areas prior to the ban. In all of these places smoking indoors was considered vital to the business and the exception was made. Casinos can fall into the same realm, I don't see that people would have a problem.

Some of the land does have value because of the natural resources located there. This is the biggest store of value that the Native Americans can harness to raise themselves out of poverty and begin to live better lives.

no it is *not*, and the reason you're failing to understand that is that you don't get that they... just don't want the "gift" you're trying to give.

and go ahead and try and piss me off; you're just making yourself look ignorant. as a software engineer, i work with a lot of people from india. those are indians. indigenous people of america are exactly that; native americans.

Did you watch the video? It just seems as though many Native Americans might want to be rid of the trust system.

Just think about it a bit more open-minded, you take every instance to attack Marshall rather than discuss the question with any sense of level-headedness.

[Dagamus(NM)]

It has a lot more to do with not liking it, is has to do with the mislabeling of a huge group of peoples for centuries. It's also so ingrained into culture and politics down there that it's become accepted. Calling a Native an Indian up here could likely be met with a sore jaw.

When he asked me that question I wasn't sure what to answer with. My response was what do you mean by Indian? He got a good laugh out of that. He was more interested in the girls I was with but either way he was a pretty funny guy.

I work with a lot of natives and they have a whole host of things they refer to themselves as that I would not. Mostly I hear skins or coyotes. We have a few rednecks here that call them wagon burners.

Native American or American Indian seems to fly just fine. I simply refer to them as natives.

[cale]

Its just much to do about nothing. Columbus thought he found the West Indies, called them Indians. He was mistaken. The name stuck. No one in their right mind would confuse a red dot Indian for a North American Indian. Semantics. But whatever floats their boat. Its not a slur no matter what way you look at it.

That's not wind you hear, that's the sound of what I said going right over your head while you blankly stare at the sky.

[marshallnoise]

That's not wind you hear, that's the sound of what I said going right over your head while you blankly stare at the sky.

I understand what you said cale: A native Canadian (haha) getting called an Indian in Canada is fighting words.

Mislabeled: Such a strange concept really. Its like a tree that we call a tree but the tree doesn't want to be called a tree but that's what we call it and have forever.

Does it change who they are because they were mistaken for red-dot Indians and the name stuck? Are we confusing who the hell they are? Fuck no.