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    Originally posted by z31maniac View Post

    At this point I think I'd like to see Bloomberg. He's enough of a centrist he's not really going to make it much worse than it is now.
    Sarcasm, or for real? Bloomberg is all sorts of awful; he's in this race at all because he is scared of Sanders winning. All that money sure buys Bloomberg slick ads though! At least the 20 million people who watched the debate the other night could get a little peek at the man behind the curtain. And what makes him 'centrist' anyway? He picks positions that suit him best, some are right, some are center, and some are left.

    Certainly like discussing politics with you, though! A serious question to anybody: Z31 says a 'centrist' president will at least make things not much worse - what constitutes policy "center" ? Is this dictated by actual principles or just the current status of our f'd up politics? & What's one big thing that could happen, or that could change, to make things better ?
    Last edited by phillipj; 02-21-2020, 01:55 PM.
    1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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      Originally posted by phillipj View Post

      Sarcasm, or for real? Bloomberg is all sorts of awful; he's in this race at all because he is scared of Sanders winning. All that money sure buys Bloomberg slick ads though! At least the 20 million people who watched the debate the other night could get a little peek at the man behind the curtain. And what makes him 'centrist' anyway? He picks positions that suit him best, some are right, some are center, and some are left.

      Certainly like discussing politics with you, though! A serious question to anybody: Z31 says a 'centrist' president will at least make things not much worse - what constitutes policy "center" ? Is this dictated by actual principles or just the current status of our f'd up politics? & What's one big thing that could happen, or that could change, to make things better ?
      I wouldn't say "sarcasm" but more accepting reality.

      What makes anyone centrist? Is centrist the same for you as it is for me?

      The only person in recent years I thought was on the right track was Gary Johnson. Apparently basically no one agreed with me.
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        Originally posted by z31maniac View Post

        I wouldn't say "sarcasm" but more accepting reality.

        What makes anyone centrist? Is centrist the same for you as it is for me?

        The only person in recent years I thought was on the right track was Gary Johnson. Apparently basically no one agreed with me.
        I think it would be fantastic to have a few viable parties in the US. Getting forced into only 1 of 2 lanes is not very comfortable. There were more people that agreed with you than you think! But you get told that's not "Electable"! At least you voted for what you believed in.

        So, Is "Center" what the majority of people want? If so, things like 'Medicare for All', a living wage, legalizing weed, greatly changing our foreign policy / ending our Endless Wars, etc... that would be 'Center.' Many of these things are also what I would call the "Moral Center", which is Centrism to me. Policies determined more on ethics and morals (not big money interests).

        Or is "Center" just what the loudest voices in establishment media & politics say it is? If so, that means we need to keep doing things the same way, let's not rock the boat.
        Last edited by phillipj; 02-27-2020, 11:03 AM.
        1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

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          Watch the Joe Rogan podcast from last month with Bill Mahr. Classic liberal/progressive. Much better platform for him to explain his views rather than the people he has on his HBO show who are far more left than he is.
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            Z and phil, the fact you guys are debating what is center, or centrism is a great example of the ignorance I've been pointing out and talking about. Not bashing on you guys here, just using the example. The concept of "center" or "centrism" within politics and social structuring is pretty well defined, and has been for a long time. It's not about what is center too either of you, as that is just your misinformed opinions, it's about whether or not your opinions fall with in the definition of centrism. I constantly see americans doing this. Moving goalposts to fit their opinion of something, instead of changing their opinion. Within the context of american politics right now, your best example of a centrist is bernie. But because americans don't want to admit that, or are generally too ignorant to know better, you guys move the goal posts, so instead of him being a centrist, now he's a radical left wing socialist. It's bullshit. By today's american standards, Lincoln would be radical left wing, so would Reagan on many social issues. Bush sr would be hung by the nra and republicans as anti gun liberal taking away your freedoms. But that's exactly how propaganda works. They rely on your ignorance and laziness. You don't know any better, and your too lazy to look it up and educate yourself, so the posts get moved, the definition changes, and the truth and facts don't matter as much.

            Now Z, as far as Gary Johnson goes, he never had a chance. No libertarian will ever have a chance. Mainly because libertarianism isn't a real political ideology. Libertarianism is the scientology of the political realm. When put under any scrutiny it falls apart. You can look up the creation of it, and who did it. And its all bullshit. The best part is all libertarians think they're the only real libertarian, and all the others don't know what libertarianism is.

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              Carp I understand what you are saying, but I just think you are looking at it from an international perspective where there are actually political parties that represent a true right and left ideology (I guess fascism and communism). In reality, the American political spectrum is all part of the the moderate or Centrist viewpoint. What people are referring to in America is just a magnified view, where there are more conservative and more liberal viewpoints along this moderate spectrum. I don't think that makes people ignorant, they just have a different reality that they are working with.

              Comment


                Bonder, I get what your saying, but I think your missing what my international view allows. And that's the fact I was raised outside the bubble of american exceptionalism. It's true america was founded as and has mainly been "center left" or "centrist". But that doesn't mean it is immune to the same forces that led to extremes of either ideology. This idea that things can't or won't happen by virtue of simply being america is fool hardy. You guys do have political factions within your party's that advocate for the extremes. From ultra right wing neo nazi's to ultra socialist communists. Either can gain power. Look no further than the shift of the republican party from center left to far right. This shift was due to extremist gaining control of a party and slowly moving it along their view point. Look how quickly trump redefined the party once again in his own image.

                I notice americans have no idea what their talking about when it comes communism or socialism or facism. You guys aren't terrible with the facism thing, still bad tho. But where you guys constantly miss the mark is the communism/ socialism thing. It's always russia, china, or north korea used for examples. Guess what tho, none of those countries are or ever have been communist. Their all authoritarian. They never made it to full communism. Part of the process of communism is the leaders of the revolt relinquishing power once the dust settles. That never happened. Truth be told there's never really been a true communist society, or socialist. You guys point to hitler for the socialist example, but miss the fact he wasn't a socialist, again authoritarian. Same goes for Mussolini, PolPot, ect ect. All authoritarian. And all used the same playbook of inserting into a political party and shifting it to their ideology.

                As for the differing "reality" point. Well that's just wrong. There is only one reality for all of us. But our perspectives, thus our opinion of that reality can differ. That perspective is shaped by time and experience, along with knowledge and fact. When people have varying perspectives there's a process to sort out which is aligned with reality. That's too sit and look at the facts. This is where you guys are veering sharply in to the dangerous path of authoritarian and ultra right wing extremists. You currently have, embodied in the republican party, a group that is truly in their own reality. That ignore fact for "alternative facts". There's no compromising with that, there's no coming to the table and working threw it. Because they don't need facts, or truth, or even reality, they have their faith, propaganda, and fearless leader.

                A great example is "weapons of mass destruction". You had the facts, you knew it was bullshit. But because one party was in their own reality and had power, and a base that doesn't need or care about facts you went to war. Thousands of lives lost and ruined. An entire country in ruin. Not because of reality, but inspite of it.






                Comment


                  Originally posted by CarpHunter View Post
                  Z and phil, the fact you guys are debating what is center, or centrism is a great example of the ignorance I've been pointing out and talking about. Not bashing on you guys here, just using the example. The concept of "center" or "centrism" within politics and social structuring is pretty well defined, and has been for a long time. It's not about what is center too either of you, as that is just your misinformed opinions, it's about whether or not your opinions fall with in the definition of centrism. I constantly see americans doing this. Moving goalposts to fit their opinion of something, instead of changing their opinion. Within the context of american politics right now, your best example of a centrist is bernie. But because americans don't want to admit that, or are generally too ignorant to know better, you guys move the goal posts, so instead of him being a centrist, now he's a radical left wing socialist. It's bullshit. By today's american standards, Lincoln would be radical left wing, so would Reagan on many social issues. Bush sr would be hung by the nra and republicans as anti gun liberal taking away your freedoms. But that's exactly how propaganda works. They rely on your ignorance and laziness. You don't know any better, and your too lazy to look it up and educate yourself, so the posts get moved, the definition changes, and the truth and facts don't matter as much.
                  I'd agree with you that Bernie Sanders is actually way more True Center.

                  Obama and Clinton were right of Reagan. Our country has drifted so far Rightward and Authoritarian (Trump, Bloomberg) it doesn't even know what "center" is. But our very powerful corporate-run media and politicians will shout loudly and tell us what "Left" or "Right" is-- but let's understand these are only relative to each other. We get so used to being bombarded by this spun messaging, we take it as fact.
                  Last edited by phillipj; 03-12-2020, 04:01 PM.
                  1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

                  Comment


                    Will Coronavirus be Trump's 'Katrina' -- or worse?

                    Is it the straw that breaks the camel's back and exposes deeper financial problems we have? How big will this crash be? Are you prepared?
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                      Originally posted by phillipj View Post
                      Will Coronavirus be Trump's 'Katrina' -- or worse?

                      Is it the straw that breaks the camel's back and exposes deeper financial problems we have? How big will this crash be? Are you prepared?
                      comments like this make me hate politics. Do you know why the markets are crashing?
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                        Originally posted by phillipj View Post
                        Will Coronavirus be Trump's 'Katrina' -- or worse?

                        Is it the straw that breaks the camel's back and exposes deeper financial problems we have? How big will this crash be? Are you prepared?
                        Who gives a damn about the political impact. People will be severely injured by the current turmoil, jobs will be lost, savings drained, homes will go in to foreclosure, lives will be ruined just because of poor timing. No one and no government can realistically prepare for any of this or shield citizens from the impact.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by roguetoaster View Post

                          Who gives a damn about the political impact. People will be severely injured by the current turmoil, jobs will be lost, savings drained, homes will go in to foreclosure, lives will be ruined just because of poor timing. No one and no government can realistically prepare for any of this or shield citizens from the impact.
                          I do think this is serious in every right and I don't think this is just an issue of 'poor timing.' We are wholly unprepared and this is a matter of priorities. Our country and leadership, most especially the President, but both sides, do not think globally or long term. The knee-jerk solutions are so reactionary and really bullshit because the system is so flawed to begin with. Coronavirus/pandemics, as well as Climate Change, have massive global ripple effects that (like you say) ruin lives or kill, and they are a very worthwhile topic and merit criticism politically.
                          Last edited by phillipj; 03-13-2020, 08:50 PM.
                          1990 BMW 325iC Triple Black Hard Top, Self-Wrenched, Original Owner Family

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by roguetoaster View Post

                            Who gives a damn about the political impact. People will be severely injured by the current turmoil, jobs will be lost, savings drained, homes will go in to foreclosure, lives will be ruined just because of poor timing. No one and no government can realistically prepare for any of this or shield citizens from the impact.
                            Yep. I thankful for the ability to work home. Unfortunately, my lady doesn't have that option.
                            And there are fuckheads out there with the thought of "doesn't matter to me, I'm good"

                            I won't go into more, but god damn the lack of empathy from people is sad.
                            Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
                            Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

                            www.gutenparts.com
                            One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
                              I won't go into more, but god damn the lack of empathy from people is sad.
                              Yes, some people forget that this is a country made up of people, not just groups, and when we make the least among us greater/safer/better we all benefit, just not immediately. Lack of patience/foresight has really contributed to the issue.

                              Comment


                                What do you guys think of the situation with Rep. Richard Burr. Apparantly before Americans knew corona was going to be a big problem he advised his buddies the it was gonna be. Then he told Americans it was not going to be an issue and sold is stocks before the crash.

                                https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/2882006001

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