Experienced Track Junkies - A moment please?

[Bishop]

Thanks Brian... The thought's crossed my mind, but I'm pretty deep into this e30 right now and I'm wary of the e36s... People like to talk about how they're always breaking (little things) or something's always wrong.... I used to wanna believe that as internet hear-say... But now 2 local friends both have e36s and both are constantly wrenching...

[briansjacobs]

Thanks Brian... The thought's crossed my mind, but I'm pretty deep into this e30 right now and I'm wary of the e36s... People like to talk about how they're always breaking (little things) or something's always wrong.... I used to wanna believe that as internet hear-say... But now 2 local friends both have e36s and both are constantly wrenching...

how many people do you know constantly wrenching on E30's? sounds like everyone on R3v is constantly doing something or trying to figure something out. I would not hesitate to buy an E36. It is a great car, but cars with years and mileage need wrenching. I think in the long run the E36 is cheaper to own if you want a go fast car as there are so many of them still running. Not to mention the fact that the E30 is such a cult status car now that a nice one is actually worth more than its E36 sibling. The only big problem with the M5x/S5x motors was oil pump nut and the lifters losing prime, which all you need to do is run an extra .5 qt oil to solve.

with that said, im keeping my E30 because I love it and I have to much into it to ever sell it.

[Bishop]

That's kinda where I'm at... I'm not THAT deep into it, but I'm not really a competitive racer... yet.... I DD my car, and it's a blast, but it's down on power... So looking for a good compromise between DD and track. Down the line, who knows, I might have an e36. But I don't think selling this car and buying an M3 is going to happen any time soon. The 24v swap is common, but seems to cost as much as a turbo setup, so just wondering which would be the wiser decision for someone in my position.

[briansjacobs]

my understanding is this is not a race build at all. I would not build an E30 for racing as there are so few places to race them competitively. You want to race on a budget you buy a miata. You want a fun dd/hpde car you get a BMW.

you want a little more pep for now start with gears. You can do a turbo for much less than a 24V swap but it is a long list of other things to throw money at after. Especially when you track it!

[Bishop]

This would be an SCCA time trials car as an end result, probably nothing more. SE30 isn't popular enough around here, and if I wanted to do some actual racing down the line, i could join spec miata, but that's all just a thought process right now....

Right now the reality of my situation is this:

I'm a full-time college student, nearly full-time employee. I was looking at e36 M3s after I got out of my 07 STi and was kinda turned off on how common they were, which is when I stumbled across the e30 chassis. Pretty much instantly loved it's old, quirky, boxy look. Picked one up and haven't looked back. As an end result (I know this sounds expensive, but hey, who hasn't played this scenario out in their mind) I'd like the BMW to be a dedicated track / fun car. Not necessarily for racing in any particular league, but like I said, Time Trials and fun? And I'd like to pick up another Subaru to DD (the list goes deeper like another Jeep, really miss my old Wrangler and I'd like a bike at some point, and of course a trailer and a tow vehicle ;) ). But for right now, the BMW is my DD, the driver can definitely be improved upon, I need to learn how to set up the suspension and recognize what it's doing and how to correct (after tuning myself, yadda yadda), and later on, after I'm a better driver, I'd be able to fully utilize a BBK and a boost in power. As it sits now, since the car is MOSTLY a DD, it's annoyingly down on power, so I'd like to improve upon that, with a weekend warrior / end result in mind as a part time racer.

[briansjacobs]

if you want to seriously improve the driver, fix the car and leave it as stock as possible. This will yield the fastest driver, very rare that anyone ever listens to this advice.

[Charlie]

if you want to seriously improve the driver, fix the car and leave it as stock as possible. This will yield the fastest driver, very rare that anyone ever listens to this advice.

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

[Emre]

I know the M20 is fine for track days...

It is. Engine mods are not really as useful on the track as you'd think. Spend your money on suspension, brakes, tires, and driving schools. Keep the drivetrain stock. A properly set up E30 can be incredibly quick and fun-to-drive even with a bone-stock M20 under the hood.

I was at Tremblant this weekend running my 318is. Here's the set-up: stock 165,000 mile M20 under the hood; Turner J-Stock springs; Bilstein Sport dampers; IE sways; big-brake kit (Lee's smallest kit, but with smaller NDL calipers instead of the Superlights); Toyo R1R street tires. Full interior, etc. There were two other E30's in the Instructor group. One had an M50 swap the other was running a 2.8L stroker. Both were running r-compounds. Both were stripped out. They were running pretty close to each other. I was a bit quicker than both, despite less power, more weight, and less grip.

Theoretically..... If you had the brakes to go with the increase in power, would you guys prefer a turbo m20 or an s50 (or variation of 24v swap).

Personally, I wouldn't spend any time/money on an engine swap or turbo build for a track rat. Your money is much better spent elsewhere. Like doing as many driving schools as you possibly can. If I was quicker than the other E30s, it's 100% down to track knowledge (I know Tremblant inside-out).

[briansjacobs]

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

you should never ever ever go off line to let anyone by. If a car has 300 hp you dont need to lift to let them by. And dealing with all that trafic will give you better situational awareness. I have passed Vipers in a Touareg, so dont start with excuses. Do you want to be the faster the car or the better driver?

[Charlie]

you should never ever ever go off line to let anyone by. If a car has 300 hp you dont need to lift to let them by. And dealing with all that trafic will give you better situational awareness. I have passed Vipers in a Touareg, so dont start with excuses. Do you want to be the faster the car or the better driver?

Yea dude, I know the driver's school cliches too.

When I'm out there running TT's & instructor sessions, I'll move offline to give a guy on a flyer room. If you're talking schools, general ettiquette is still to lift when a point is given. That fucks your rhythm if you're in a tiny motored car.

The guy was simply asking a motor question, it seems like everyone loves to chime in with the same "hurfdeedurf, fast car/fast driver" lines every single f'n time.

To add to the discussion, ran an m20 for 8+ years until I popped it coming through turn 13 at Mid Oh. Stuck a 2.5 Vanos M50 in the car, nice upgrade. Not tons of extra power up top, but a bunch more midrange, really changes the car. Eats E36 M3s and can hassle E46s.

-Charlie

[nando]

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

this hasn't really been my experience. it probably varies track to track, but other than genuine supercars I haven't really been ran down by that many cars.

[Emre]

The guy was simply asking a motor question, it seems like everyone loves to chime in with the same "hurfdeedurf, fast car/fast driver" lines every single f'n time.

He's asking for our opinion about whether an M20 turbo or M50 swap would be a good investment for a track car. Many of us have the opinion that it's not worth messing with a perfectly good M20 unless there's some reason to do so. Personally, if I were the original poster, I wouldn't do an engine swap until I had the rest of the car optimized and had a few HPDE's under my belt.

To add to the discussion, ran an m20 for 8+ years until I popped it coming through turn 13 at Mid Oh. Stuck a 2.5 Vanos M50 in the car, nice upgrade. Not tons of extra power up top, but a bunch more midrange, really changes the car. Eats E36 M3s and can hassle E46s.

Sounds like you fall into the category of "had a good reason to swap out the M20." That doesn't mean every n00b with an E30 needs to swap in an M50 before hitting the track for the first time, which is where the OP seems to be coming from.

[Dave]

I have never seen a turboed e30 outside of its natural habitat: non-running in a shitty apartment complex parking lot.

Go with the M/S50 varient. It's painless.

-Charlie

4th place in the One Lap of America? Of course the work/budget in that thing is far from your typical turbo e30, I suppose.

And on the whole slow e30 thing - I kind of agree. Last year when I got moved up to A group, I spent most of the day Saturday with my arm out the window. Sunday was slightly better, but still not great.

So far this year, it has improved a lot. But while I am passing some e36 Ms/ and the like in my stock drivetrain car, there are some cars that just eat me up no matter what now that I am in the highest run group.

Don't get me wrong, there is still more speed to be had in the car as it is. But it is not like it was in C/D run group days where I could eat up all the "fast" cars.

[Charlie]

4th place in the One Lap of America? Of course the work/budget in that thing is far from your typical turbo e30, I suppose.

And on the whole slow e30 thing - I kind of agree. Last year when I got moved up to A group, I spent most of the day Saturday with my arm out the window. Sunday was slightly better, but still not great.

So far this year, it has improved a lot. But while I am passing some e36 Ms/ and the like in my stock drivetrain car, there are some cars that just eat me up no matter what now that I am in the highest run group.

Don't get me wrong, there is still more speed to be had in the car as it is. But it is not like it was in C/D run group days where I could eat up all the "fast" cars.

I think Anthony's car *kinda* goes outside the realm of your typical e30tech turbo build. That thing was insane, I watched it spin the tires the entire way down the back stretch at mid oh when I was behind him coming out of the keyhole.

-Charlie

[Dave]

Yeah, not exactly your typical "I got a used turbo off eBay and a Starion intercooler at the Pick-n-Pay" setup that you usually see. To have that car built, you'd be paying at least 50k. And mind you, it still needed a fair amount of dialing in to make it as reliable as it was for the One Lap. There are a couple of spent short blocks to prove it. :o)

The fact is, I think the FI guys are spending about 5x as much time making repairs at track days than the rest of us. I hate when I have to fix stuff at the track.