What to do for brakes short of a Massive kit?

[Massive Lee]

there is yet another technique that I teach but only to very advanced drivers of braking less for a sharp turn and turn in off throttle and allow the scrub of the turn to complete your deceleration for you then back to throttle just before apex. A perfect example for this would be ATL turn 1.

That's indeed what any low-power car should do. Use all four wheels to steer so that you use less of the front wheels, meaning you can be on the throttle way earlier. This is based on the simple rule that the more steering input, the less throttle can be applied.

I also train from novices to racers, and for sure, the content is not the same, but the physics remain similar between the different levels. Just expressed in different ways.

[e30s50dan]

I love braking late, trailbraking through the entry of the corner and modulating the direction of the car with the throttle. With such a momentum car, any amount of time off-throttle is a waste.


DIDDO!!

[briansjacobs]

do what you like, but data does not lie, the old addage of slow in fast out still applies.

for example, this is the slow way through a corner, it does look really fast though, and it does take skill, but fast it is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N10qkrZPQA&feature=autofb

[Massive Lee]

do what you like, but data does not lie, the old addage of slow in fast out still applies.

Obviously somebody who enters a corner "too quick" or "on the wrong line" will waste precious time to recover, which is what the clip shows. But we are beyond that. Braking late, and braking too late are not the same.

My own data show that the longer I am on the throttle and the shorter on the brakes, the quicker a lap. So I just brake later. And harder... :mrgreen:

But hey, BMW HPDEs teach you to go safe. So yes, brake way ahead, take a sip of cappuccino, read the financial section, and aim at your late apex... HPDEs don't necessarely teach you fast. I hate late apexes, but hey, they are safe and part of the curriculum...

[briansjacobs]

that is sort of my point, it is not as important to brake late as it is important to gas early. so you need to figure out where the earliest point you can accelerate at a maximum mid corner speed and then figure out how late you can brake to to keep the other two more important functions of the process in tact.
I will often refer to this as throwing away a straight away to maximize a braking zone (never something you want to do)

I agree, brake hard over a short distance, but being the last person on the brakes is not always the best thing. When I overlay data against some of the prodrivers, the place the make their time up on the track over non pros is rarely a braking zone.

[Fusion]

On a similar note, could you guys post duct pics?
I have the valence OEM ducts next to the fogs, but they're only a couple inches deep. Is there an OEM duct option?

[Vtec?lol]

I say go for a front 5lug setup and slap on some e36 m3 rotors and calipers..

[Bishop]

5 lug isn't an option and I'm interested how to run the ducts too.... I have the OEM holes and the OEM tunnel running into the wheel well, but it seems that under full lock the wheel will rip the duct apart... Is it a good idea to pull as much of that fender liner as I can and route the ducting as far inboard as possible?

[briansjacobs]

fender liner? we dont need no stinking fender liner!

[kuzimmer]

5 lug isn't an option and I'm interested how to run the ducts too.... I have the OEM holes and the OEM tunnel running into the wheel well, but it seems that under full lock the wheel will rip the duct apart... Is it a good idea to pull as much of that fender liner as I can and route the ducting as far inboard as possible?

Do you have the plastic engine belly pan/splash guard or is that long gone? If you have it, you can route your ducting inside the pan, then cut holes in the sides of the guard and route the ducting in front of the strut tube and straight at the back of the rotor. If you don't have the pan, you will need to use zip ties or clamps, but you will still need to route the ducting inside the frame rail, then back towards the back side of the wheel.

If you are trying to use the stock OEM brake duct opening, you need to remove the OEM tunnel. The ducting goes around (to the inside) the fender piece where the OEM duct exits. Am I making any sense?

BTW, I don't think Motul 600 is a waste of money. I always seem to have a mushier pedal with ATE Super Blue, than with Motul 600.

Kurt

[Bishop]

Well, I had it but I yanked it when I did the timing belt and it never made it back onto the car, 95% sure it made it to the trash like a month ago. Thanks for the tips though, I hadn't thought inboard of the frame, but the rest is about what I was expecting / planning. I have 1 tunnel, the other went missing long ago, no big loss since I figured I'd be routing the tubing before the tunnel anyway. Kurt, or anyone for that matter, I appreciate the help, I'm making a list, and checking it twice, and will hopefully have all this put together before early November when I go for another lapping day. As for the fluid, it seemed like they got really similar reviews, so I'll continue using my ATI, but when I run out I'll try Motul and keep reading info till then.

and Brian, thanks, those are coming out soon too then... DD be damned.

[etxxz]

stay 4lug, there's plenty of brake solutions that can handle even higher power. I went 5-lug and regret it (camber & lock to lock rubbing), brakes are badass that's for sure.

you have your answer. track compound and racing brake fluid. Hell you can even leave your stock rotors and just switch pads for street driving... if you want.

having brake fade is good for learning how to drive anyways. teaches you how to brake less, later and more efficiently. dragging vs hit brakes hard once to the max as the springs load.

add fancy ducting and upgrades as you go. The easiest, cheapest and most effective is removing the dust shield. Stock vents are HUGE anyways. Try it, go from there!

[j0oftheworld]

I DD'ed my S2000 on Porterfield R4's.
They're Kevlar so they won't wear out your rotors and sound like metal on metal on the street.
I run PFC04's on my E30 and they're pretty awesome. I like these better than the Blues on my Spec Miata but since the E30 is heavier they're probably just as well.

[kuzimmer]

I DD'ed my S2000 on Porterfield R4's.
They're Kevlar so they won't wear out your rotors and sound like metal on metal on the street.
I run PFC04's on my E30 and they're pretty awesome. I like these better than the Blues on my Spec Miata but since the E30 is heavier they're probably just as well.

Just say no to Hawk Blues. They're old technology, they tear up rotors when cold and the brake dust is highly corrosive. Ruined the finish on a set of my wheels about 10 years ago running at Thunderhill in the rain. R4s won't wear out your rotors, but I can sure wear out an R4 in a hurry. They never lasted for me.

If only Wilwood made their H compound for the E30, talk about awesome. Scott Adare at Adare Motorsports has a proprietary pad that is similar to the Wilwood H compound. About 1/2 of the Pro-3 racecars in the Northwest use them. They are really expensive, but I'm told they last about twice as long as most track pads, kind of like the Wilwood H. I've heard nothing but rave reviews. You can contact Scott at 509-230-0929 or scott@adaremotorsports.com

Also I found a fairly reasonable brake duct kit from Fab-Tek.
http://store.fab-tek.com/bmw-e30-fro...ation-kit.html I know these guys, Mike and Bob, good people, didn't know they had this kit until today. Jack Money at Elephant Motorsports, forum sponsor, also sells backing plates at a reasonable price, if you are not up for trying to make your own.

[Massive Lee]

I second the recommendation for Wilwood's H compound. As well as running away from Hawk Blues. These and the Metalmasters are old technologies from the days when people had sideburns and big mustaches, and girls were wearing polyester hotpants.