Rallycross Downshifting

[Northern]

There's a few other techniques, but the video should give you an idea. I use the ball of my foot to brake, then roll my foot over and tap the gas with the other side of my foot.

This is the way I "heel-toe" in E30s, and now other cars as well. It ends up being much more comfortable than trying to rotate your foot under the steering column.

A small part of OP's problem may also be shifter slop.

[itsonlygeorge]

Here's a good video on heel-toe shifting from Ayrton Senna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzLjZWrpzmQ

[ELVA164]

....and most importantly, the car will not get upset during the shift. I couldn't imagine not heel-toe in mid corner.

Also this, for sure. I would think trail braking would be pretty useful on dirt as well, yeah? So mid-corner downshifts would come into play even more often that way.

[nando]

What i'm doing is taking my right foot off the gas and pushing the clutch down to the floor with my left foot. Then taking my right foot and pushing down the brake pedal. Almost at the same time I'm grabbing the shifter and looking for second gear.

that sounds like a really slow, clumsy way to shift.

[ForcedFirebird]

That's fine, but heel-toe will help regardless of surface. You'll use up the synchros much faster by downshifting without it, whether it's on tarmac, dirt, or snow. It also reduces fatigue on the clutch, differential, and engine internals.

....and most importantly, the car will not get upset during the shift. I couldn't imagine not heel-toe in mid corner.

[ELVA164]

That's fine, but heel-toe will help regardless of surface. You'll use up the synchros much faster by downshifting without it, whether it's on tarmac, dirt, or snow. It also reduces fatigue on the clutch, differential, and engine internals.

[Smrtpunk]

What i'm doing is taking my right foot off the gas and pushing the clutch down to the floor with my left foot. Then taking my right foot and pushing down the brake pedal. Almost at the same time I'm grabbing the shifter and looking for second gear.

I've driven standard cars for years and I know that this type of shifting does not require any sort of rev matching double clutching or anything like that.

On tarmac everything seems to be great, I can pull this kind of move off without issue numerous times.

My theory is that the engine/trans is moving around too much on the stock rubber mounts as the area's that I'm jumping onto the brakes tend to be quite rutted/rough. I've gone ahead and ordered some condor motor/trans mounts and we'll see how it goes after that.

I should be able to update this thread by the end of the month with how it all goes.

Ian

[YosemiteSam]

Come on guys. He's clearly granny shifting, not double clutching like he should.

Edit: This guy knows what's up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmlZZRsckM4

[4x4_e30]

Damn, I got the wording wrong but the concept is the same. Yall knew what I meant haha

[ELVA164]

Shouldn't have to double clutch, if you time things right, there's no clutch needed at all.

True, but since OP hasn't ever done any sort of rev-matching the clutch will allow some "wiggle room" with the blip and will still be a lot more effective than doing nothing at all.

[ForcedFirebird]

rev matching alone won't help too much since you're clutched in as you're entering the next gear. there is still a tiny bit of friction there but it won't make that much of a difference in input shaft speed. double clutching will but that's a bit harder to learn.

you should be rev matching anyway, but in theory it won't make much of a difference. if he can't find a gear in rallycross my guess is he isn't clutching in all the way due to lack of muscle memory from performance oriented driving (or it could be his synchros just suck). if you can learn to double clutch that will definitely help, but that takes time.

To me, rev matching isn't about the synchros or getting it into next gear, it's about the smooth transition when the clutch is released as to not upset the car. Some people don't heel toe, but I could never get the hang of it that way. (EDIT: Never mind, you are talking clutch-less shifting)

Shouldn't have to double clutch, if you time things right, there's no clutch needed at all.

[ThatOneEuroE30]

Gotcha. I've done it some in the Cortina but I avoid doing it on downshifts, preferring heel-toe for safety's sake. I'd be curious to know what the gear ratios are on those Nascar boxes, seeing how they're four-speed boxes that allow for a top end of 200+. I would think the RPM drops between shifts would be pretty noticeable, making clutchless shifting pretty brutal on the drivetrain. Do you know if they do this only on oval courses or if they employ in on road courses as well?

Yup both especially on road courses. They do have a clutch but only use it to go into first. What's funny is from time to time will use the clutch and that's actually on ovals more cause it's easier to gain ground.

[ELVA164]

Elva yes rev shifting is clutchless shifting. Used most commonly in nascar for faster shifting. I'm a nascar nerd cause I've grown up around it.

Gotcha. I've done it some in the Cortina but I avoid doing it on downshifts, preferring heel-toe for safety's sake. I'd be curious to know what the gear ratios are on those Nascar boxes, seeing how they're four-speed boxes that allow for a top end of 200+. I would think the RPM drops between shifts would be pretty noticeable, making clutchless shifting pretty brutal on the drivetrain. Do you know if they do this only on oval courses or if they employ in on road courses as well?

dogleg = shift pattern
dog engagement = big-ass "dog" teeth instead of cone synchros

dogleg engagement is not a thing

Troof. The gear parts are called "dogs," and the dog-leg is so named for its shape on the shift pattern. Merely coincidence, but understandably confusing.

Another interesting fact: A dogbox can select any gear at any speed, whereas a synchro box will not allow a downshift from, say, fourth to first. This is because the synchros cannot match the speeds of the input and output shafts and will "prevent" the engagement, where in a dogbox there is no "nanny" keeping the dogs from engaging.

[henryki]

I remember the first time I drove a standard.... lol.

The worst part is that kids these days won't even know about rev shifting; I figure it won't take too many more years for every stick sporty car to have that automatic rev shifter.

they already have one.....

[Wh33lhop]

Clutchless shifting on a transmission with syncros is bad juju. I do it sometimes just to show off, but I know how to unload the drivetrain properly so it's not too rough. You need a trans with dogleg engagement to do that all the time(NOT dogleg shift pattern).

dogleg = shift pattern
dog engagement = big-ass "dog" teeth instead of cone synchros

dogleg engagement is not a thing

jeez I am all kinds of pedantic in this thread. sorry folks.