Suspension!!!!!!!!

[TobyB]

stop trying to sound smart, coils are more then normal springs and shocks because of the massive amounts customization and adjustments you can make.

No. I am not smart. I keep making the same mistakes over and over again. I may be nuts, by that definition, now that you mention it...

BUT- a spring is a spring. 5", 3", 60mm, torsion bar, leaf, it's a spring. Buy a cheap 2" spring,
be sad and saggy. Buy a good quality 2" spring, be happy.
Buy a cheap 5" spring, be saggy and sad, buy a good quality 5" spring, be happy.
Buy a rate that's good for your purpose, be happy. Try to go too low and soft, be very sad.
Try to go too stiff, be sad. Ad nauseum.
And hell, you can add adjustable perches to the stock
springs, if you like the rate. Or your H&R's, or some stock car springs, or...

This is especially true in the rear if you are NOT going to coil-over-spring arrangement,
as there is not much extra room for springs, stock, and lowering it makes it worse.

Dampers are dampers. A cheap damper doesn't usually really work. An expensive damper may work
WORSE, if it's totally inappropriate for the purpose.
It doesn't matter much how the spring is or is not wrapped around it.
In front, the coil IS already wrapped around it, stock.
So money for a good damper IS well spent- if it's spent on something that is designed
for the purpose that the car's going to be used for.

Yes, you are opening a potentially huge can of worms by redesigning elements of your suspension,
and that can IS bigger when you cnange to a 2.5" spring. And unless there is some need
for increased front camber (like you're tracking the car) there's no real imperative to go to
a small front spring.
Crap, I'd bet 3/4ths of the people who do/have done weld- on adjusters
for the rear are taking camber OUT for the street! That's fine, but it's not driving a
'maximum grip in the corners' car.

So yes, I stand by it- there is nothing special about a 'coilover', even if you're ditching the
stock rear spring perches to go to a true coil-over-shock in the rear.
You get more options, in the end you (paradoxically) may save money as you dial the
car in, but that's really it.

If "dumb people" think that a $300 kit from China that they buy on ePay is going to work
like a $7500 kit with good springs, adjustable perches, top mounts and 4- way adjustable dampers from Ohlins...
well...
hell...
for stancing on the street at 35mph, it may not matter.

But it probably won't result in a car that'll lap fast and repeatably.

This IS the track forum, right?

t

[Wschnitz]

This IS the track forum, right?

t

You would be surprised...

Ive seen far too many people act like their dollar store coilovers are track material.

[TobyB]

Good point...

...and try things I'd rate as 'low percentage' on the track, on the street....

t

[djjerme]

..hey, my dollar store/home brew coilovers where good for low 1:31's/High 1:30's at PIR at the last conference race there. Just not with me driving.

[Wschnitz]

Kinda like an IT error, but intsead of between keyboard and seat its steering wheel and seat :P

[TobyB]

... and 'dollar store' race parts are by no means cheap, either...

t

[Los818]

I'm new to the game and i don't want to blow the bank account because i'm trying to learn the ropes.

What do you think about H&R Touring cup or Sport cup suspension? what's the difference?
I want to use the car as a daily and on the weekend i want to be able to take it to the track.
Is there something else out there that is better for the same amount of money? or am i getting the my money worth with H&R.

Any info will help. Thanks!

[DER E30]

If you decide to go that route, do like Toby suggested and spend some extra coin on GOOD camber plates

Curious as to what is good? GC?

[TobyB]

I think the GC camber plates are pretty sexy. But they are race parts, and need more
maintenance than the stock parts.

I want to use the car as a daily and on the weekend i want to be able to take it to the track.

If you're new to the track, take the car, stock. It will be forgiving, instructive, and fun.

If you've been a few times, H&R's a good intermediate step- and I don't know the difference, either.
If you think you may get serious, converting to 2 1/2" springs and camber plates up
front is not false economy- you can stiffen the springs and dampers as you go,
play with ride heights, etc, and once you do the initial conversion, it IS pretty adjustable.

None of this is cheap.

t

[SNEAK413]

It is important to harp on the fact the suspension should be thought of as a complete package. Just as the engine relies on all parts so does the suspension. It would be unwise and a waste of money to throw on shocks(dampers) and springs and not have all the other parts to support those changes. I started on Turner Motorsports J Stock because of a lack of suspension knowledge 4 seasons ago. Why because there was no adjustability. This is important because if your new you will always be chasing your tail adjusting your coilovers instead of driving your car and learning. Suspension is a vodoo art as all things must be consider, tires being the main thing, as they are only thing connecting you to the road. So I would build your suspension around your tires. But hey I run Formula Atlantic slicks so my suspension is built to work around the stiffness of those tires. Every one has an opinion, but if I where you start simple and work your way up. Billies and h&r sports are a good starting point. Then you can afford to rebuild the entire suspension. You don't want to show up to the track and be worrying about spring rates,ride height, rebound and dampening, when you need to be focused on the nut behind the wheel. But unlimited budget-then copy the e30 group a suspension. magnesium struts, heim joint control arms, every part adjustable, true rear coilovers, and cockpit adjustable sway bars. But like I said if you want to be a better driver then start off simple and work your way up. I will leave you an email that Turner sent me discussing the change from J stock which has the same dimensions as a stock style suspension to a coil over setup.

"The J-Stock springs are roughly 680 lbs/in (120 N/mm) front and 1026 lbs/in (180 N/mm) rear. For what you are doing, without going completely insane with the budget, your best bet would likely be to go with the Motion Control 2-way non-reservoir dampers and go to a linear 60mm ID spring. The dampers are $3700.00 for the set, and include the spindles for the front struts. The springs in the length and rate that you’d be looking at would be about $85.00 per spring range. You may also want to consider going with a tender spring as well, I would generally recommend a very soft tender spring that is used basically just to make sure that the primary spring stays in place. The rear is 60mm ID from BMW, so the only trick is that you would need to use the H&R rear ride height adjusters (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-11...1984-1991.aspx) and take the measurements to determine the proper length based on the exact corner weights and suspension geometry of your car."

But hey do what makes you happy

[agent]

If you're new to the track, take the car, stock. It will be forgiving, instructive, and fun.

This. One of the most common misconceptions/mistakes people have/make about taking a car to the track is that it needs to have track parts on it first.

There aren't many things that are worse for a novice driver than to show up for a track day with super sticky tires or a trick suspension. All the good instructors will tell you that it's important to learn the chassis and how to drive it well before any trick parts or tires go on it.