Sparco harness Bar install

[JGood]

What I remember from sled tests in the late 70's is that there's little to no difference in body/head position with respect to 3 vs 4-6 point belts if the upper torso remains under the three-point belt. Whether your torso is still under the cross-chest belt in a roll-over is going to be a function of what happens before the car inverts.

On the street the vast majority of accidents don't result in roll-overs. A cross-chest belt works well in a frontal impact, but less well in a quartering impact as the upper torso tends to twist out from under the belt. 4-6 point harnesses work equally well for any impact angle. On that basis I'd take my chances w/respect to a roll-over as that's a low percentage event as compared to the better protection 4-6 point belts provide in the much more common accident scenarios.

I've never actually seen test results, I am just going off of what I had thought was common knowledge. I see your points though, and can believe it. Do any non-biased test results actually exist? I'm interested to see them.

I do see your point, and in certain rare cases, it might help. Your factory seat belts will lock in that kind of crash and I suspect that if the roof does come down, it won't matter much if you are using a full harness or the factory belts.

Lets just both agree to not test any of these theories, ever. OK? :D

I see your point too. And, agreed!

Man that Jgood sure is smart, the man knows everything, including where my body will go in every possible accident scenario.

Thanks for your valuable input. You know, if this stuff isn't discussed and debated, no progress would be made.

[JGood]

what do you have to do to cave in the roof enough to crush your body inside the car? im not trying to be a smartass i just want to know so i can avoid that ahah

Since there's only a few inches between your head and the roof, it doesn't take much. But as the other guys pointed out, it's probably not as common as what I make it out to be. I just know what it's like being strapped into six points and not being able to move, at all. Just a scary feeling. Hence the roll bar!

[wolfgangstbd]

i guess i have a better chance of not hitting my head than some people ahah. im not that tall :)

[JGood]

Man that Jgood sure is smart, the man knows everything, including where my body will go in every possible accident scenario.

Oh, you're the guy with the sheet metal bumpers. That explains a lot. You probably know more about safety then everyone here combined.

[Need4Speed]

I just read through this whole thing and this is the bottom line.

Unless your car has MRS (multiple restraint system) you will be more likely to survive a collision involving a rollover if you have a correctly designed safety cage in conjunction with a correctly designed belt system. It makes no difference if you head splatters against a cage as opposed to any other part of the cars interior. There is padding available that will sufficiently protect you from the bars better than the original interior padding will protect you from the cars interior structure.

[jlevie]

I've never actually seen test results, I am just going off of what I had thought was common knowledge. I see your points though, and can believe it. Do any non-biased test results actually exist? I'm interested to see them.

In a way those results do exist, and they are why you see 5-6 point harnesses mandated for race cars and similar systems used in aircraft. If a cross-chest belt and airbag provided greater protection you can be sure that's what would be used. I don't remember who it was, but I recall a statement by a racing safety consultant at the last BMW CCA driving event conference. My recollection is that he stated that a a 4-point system beats a 3-point and that a 5/6-point beats either.

Although the public won't tolerate it (it is hard enough to get the average person to use the 3-point systems), a 4/5/6-point system is superior in protecting the occupant as evidenced by its use in high risk environments.

[JGood]

In a way those results do exist, and they are why you see 5-6 point harnesses mandated for race cars and similar systems used in aircraft. If a cross-chest belt and airbag provided greater protection you can be sure that's what would be used. I don't remember who it was, but I recall a statement by a racing safety consultant at the last BMW CCA driving event conference. My recollection is that he stated that a a 4-point system beats a 3-point and that a 5/6-point beats either.

Although the public won't tolerate it (it is hard enough to get the average person to use the 3-point systems), a 4/5/6-point system is superior in protecting the occupant as evidenced by its use in high risk environments.

Yeah, I know it's safer when used in racing (when you have a cage), as everything is designed to keep you in place and let the cage take the hits (and not compress into the area your body occupies).

[Need4Speed]

Yeah, I know it's safer when used in racing (when you have a cage), as everything is designed to keep you in place and let the cage take the hits (and not compress into the area your body occupies).

I read every one of your posts on this subject and it is clear you are coming from a place of either arrogance or ignorance on this subject.

Bottom line.

[Dave]

Although the public won't tolerate it (it is hard enough to get the average person to use the 3-point systems), a 4/5/6-point system is superior in protecting the occupant as evidenced by its use in high risk environments.

Well DUH!

How can I reach my Double Macchiato Half Caff Latte in the cupholder if I am pinned to the seat?????
:p

[JGood]

I read every one of your posts on this subject and it is clear you are coming from a place of either arrogance or ignorance on this subject.

Bottom line.

Thanks for your input in the discussion.

[z31maniac]

I read every one of your posts on this subject and it is clear you are coming from a place of either arrogance or ignorance on this subject.

Bottom line.

Educate us.

[jlevie]

Yeah, I know it's safer when used in racing (when you have a cage), as everything is designed to keep you in place and let the cage take the hits (and not compress into the area your body occupies).

Modern car design (and that includes E30's) is quite good at protecting the space around the occupants. It has to be for even 3-point harnesses to be effective. The design does assume that speeds will be moderate as appropriate to normal use on the highway. A cage, race seats, helmet, firesuit, and HANS type device is necessary on the track because the speeds aren't at all moderate and collision speed is frequently far in excess of what the car body was intended to survive.

Regardless of what type of restraint system is used, if there's a serious violation of the occupant space all bets are off w/respect to injury or death. The human body is surprisingly resilient w/respect to g force if properly restrained and if the integrity of the space around the occupant isn't violated. If I recall correctly, NASCAR and F1 have both seen incidents that resulted in +100g peak forces and the drivers survived with minor or no injuries. The key to survival in those cases has been the restraint systems that kept the driver (and his/her head) inside of their "safety cocoon".

[JGood]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

If I recall correctly, NASCAR and F1 have both seen incidents that resulted in +100g peak forces and the drivers survived with minor or no injuries.

Holy shit!

[wolfgangstbd]

so how did the OP's harness bar install go??