R3VLimited Forums

Go Back   R3VLimited Forums > E30 Technical Forums > Engine & Drivetrain > Alternative Tuning / W.A.R / Megasquirt / etc

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-30-2016, 09:01 AM   #31
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
No, no hate at all. I've just been here a long time and read a lot of threads. It comes off as a sales pitch when every thread about a stand alone comes up, you keep it short and (in more words), say "just buy a Link". I know you hate MS, not sure why, but it is an open source ECU with a lot of features that people take advantage of.

Not much different than the huge comprehensive thread that got lost on e30tech about tuning the Motronic systems. Everyone said "just get a PNP", when it does nothing of value for the thread or info in it. When I started posting here a decade ago, the short answer to anyone modifying an m20 was "just put an m50 in it". Posts like that have no weight in a conversation. When a person posts about a feature, map, or even tricked a stock ECU into doing what they want, the end-all be-all answer isn't always the path you would like them to take. Some people enjoy thinking outside the box, and decide they don't want to jump off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings.

Honestly I think the Link looks like a great setup, and is right on target for value vs features, but, the "pigeon on the chessboard" attitude will always get a rebuttal.


I would argue against you on that.

Like you said to me, read the thread title...
This thread is in the 'alternative tuning' category and nowhere does it state "Motronic" or "stock computer".

I hear where you are coming from. And normally my .02 cents about aftermarket engine managment can definitely veer threads off topic. I just get frustrated when people break engine parts and upgrade to heavier duty stuff when it wasn't that parts fault at all. Most people modifying their engines don't realize how important proper engine calibration is when they are pushing their cars to the limit.

But, this specific thread is about aftermarket solutions for the M20 engine.

I will rebut your statement and remind you that your comments about chipping and tuning the factory motronic is out of place on this thread!

Might I also remind you that I daily drive an IX with MS2 PnP! Please don't take my MS hatred comments as blind uneducated guesses.

For 90% of M20's on the street that simply have bigger injectors, some minor head work, and maybe even a cam, I agree with you that tuning the factory Motronic 1.3 is going to be the best solution for value, performance, and reliability.
But as you mentioned, anytime there are drastic changes made to these engines such as turbo, ITB's, or major internal engine modifications, 30 year old Motronic simply can't adapt as well as a modern day ~$1200 standalone can. You will save time and money and gain performance and reliability with a standalone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/

Last edited by berlow94; 12-30-2016 at 09:11 AM.
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 09:17 AM   #32
ForcedFirebird
R3V Elite
 
ForcedFirebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: WOT-Tech, Florida
Posts: 4,881
I replied to another member's call out on Motronic questions, at no time did I butt in the conversation

This is a public forum, and unless a moderator sees a post unfit, we are free to debate, please don't ever take my posts as "hate". I will be the furthest thing from a troll you will find here, and one of the biggest reasons all my scientific posts were on the e30t, it tended to keep the fluff and trolls out.

I never said M1.x or 3.x was the answer, just posted my experiences, with a little more than "buy this stand alone."

The m20 is a very simple engine that does not "need" a lot of bells a whistles. While perhaps you have had a bad experience with MS ($800-ish PNP for more features then m20 needs), I have had great success with it. So why don't you put a link on your M20 and make a "how to" thread show everyone how easy it is?

And as far as SFI, until recently, it would only improve fuel mileage, as the injectors (and processors) couldn't keep up past XXX rpm. COP and coil packs is another story...
__________________
-john "If you can't afford to do it proper the first time, what makes you think you can afford to do it again?"


WideOpenThrottleTech@gmail.com

Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
ForcedFirebird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 09:31 AM   #33
tschultz
Wrencher
 
tschultz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: CO
Posts: 276
Yes, I should have prefaced my earlier post--- difference in electronics with the exact same hardware can make a very big difference! I thought this was obvious with this discussion.

I guess I was just thinking out loud, mainly about how square tube (AFM) vs round tube flow air differently at the same cross sectional area. And these flow restrictions probably manifest themselves more-so in an NA engine than a FI engine.

Quote:
New calculations of the spreading of particles being carried down a pipe by a fluid show that the effect of the pipe shape—round versus rectangular—is more dramatic than researchers previously thought. The particles spread out asymmetrically in a rectangular pipe, whereas they form a symmetric distribution in both circular and elliptical pipes. Surprisingly, the cross section that reproduces the symmetrical behavior of a circular pipe is not a square but a rectangle with approximately a 2 to 1 width-to-height ratio. The researchers are unable to provide a simple physical explanation, but they believe the results may help in optimizing conduit shapes for drug delivery or for chemical reaction vessels.
Also sssquid is right about the intake manifold. The same is true of the M30-- the internal bends are a huge restriction and flow loss!
__________________
http://www.Drive4Corners.com
tschultz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 09:43 AM   #34
ForcedFirebird
R3V Elite
 
ForcedFirebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: WOT-Tech, Florida
Posts: 4,881
Jesse, have you tested the pulses in CFD on the m20 intake as you did on the exhaust?

As far as the AFM's, I said the same thing. A lot of the gain comes from worn equipment, but the AFM is also "lazy" with being mechanical. The AFM's were adjusted, when you take them a part, the springs aren't all turned the same amount, same with the air screws.

Not going to disagree about the software, you and I have had many conversations about it.

As far as the BBTB on a stock engine, I see more than a 2hp difference with engine temps. The m20 makes less power at 170f then at 190 by triple that, but does match the ~1.5hp we saw.
__________________
-john "If you can't afford to do it proper the first time, what makes you think you can afford to do it again?"


WideOpenThrottleTech@gmail.com

Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
ForcedFirebird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 09:43 AM   #35
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
I replied to another member's call out on Motronic questions, at no time did I butt in the conversation

This is a public forum, and unless a moderator sees a post unfit, we are free to debate, please don't ever take my posts as "hate". I will be the furthest thing from a troll you will find here, and one of the biggest reasons all my scientific posts were on the e30t, it tended to keep the fluff and trolls out.

I never said M1.x or 3.x was the answer, just posted my experiences, with a little more than "buy this stand alone."

The m20 is a very simple engine that does not "need" a lot of bells a whistles. While perhaps you have had a bad experience with MS ($800-ish PNP for more features then m20 needs), I have had great success with it. So why don't you put a link on your M20 and make a "how to" thread show everyone how easy it is?

And as far as SFI, until recently, it would only improve fuel mileage, as the injectors (and processors) couldn't keep up past XXX rpm. COP and coil packs is another story...

I understand, but don't see where i said "buy this standalone".
Your "here comes the sales pitch" response just seemed kinda jumpy against me.

This thread is about comparing the different M20 engine management solutions on the market. I simply stated my 2 favorite options for 2 different price points and why i like them. (Even the $1,200 MS3Pro doesn't look like it has fuel pressure compensation or built in barometric correction)
Maybe WOT power will be very similar between all of these solutions, but throttle response and driveability will not be!

My experience with MS2 PnP unit is in my IX and was professionally built and calibrated by Peter Florance. Having to buy an external lambda controller, pay $100 for software, and a serial-usb adaptor put a bad taste in my mouth before i even started the car.
Installing the Link in my S52 race car was as simple as plugging it in and turning it on. I realize that it is a little more complicated than that on an M20, but i don't think that it's much work after an M50 harness has been installed.

At the end of the day, i think we all agree that the more features you want out of your setup is going to involve more work, DIY parts, and $$$.

If you are simply looking to get +10hp out of your slightly modified 325 then i think the best solution is a chip.
If you want actual motorsport traction/launch control, SFI, overrun fuel cut, knock limit the motor, proper alpha-n on ITB's, fuel pressure compensation, closed loop wideband o2 with trimming limits &lockouts, in-depth transient ignition tables, e-throttle support, bla bla bla then you MUST use a standalone ecu.
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 09:54 AM   #36
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidmaster View Post
Actually, bigger MAF with same size TB CAN be better, anything to lessen restriction before the TB helps. But how much it helps depends on many other factors. The biggest issue with the M20 intake system is the manifold itself. The runners are way too long, the metal plenum goes right over the engine, the ports are an absolute mess, and the numerous restrictions and hindering parts inside the manifold don't help one bit.

Look at the stats for each intake port (read the graph upside down)


FWIW Riot racing and the e30 wiki show repeated gains throughout the entire power band for bbtb on M20 and M50
http://www.westcoastriots.com/htmlfiles/Products.html
http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/i...hrottle_Bodies
http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/i...30_Dyno_Graphs

There was no "matching AFM to ECU" from the factory if you mean that each car had a specific correction value pre-programmed into each ECU by a technician to match each AFM. The AFMs being that different would simply be unacceptable manufacturing and the chances that BMW would invest the work-hours into tuning each car.... there's just no way.

Each software you pull from each 173 ECU will be the same, there is no difference in the AFM mapping. Any differences between each ECU and AFM would have been learned trims and corrections between the ECUs.

That being said, the whole AFM design is just horrible by today's standards and they're likely to be breaking down, especially at this age

Does anyone produce an aftermarket manifold that is a total improvement over factory on a NA car? (Gain of top-end power AND bottem end torque)
I know there are some manifold's that the turbo guys use but i doubt these would work well on an NA motor. I know Metric Mechanic also modifies them with their "pulse tuned" chambers, but i wonder if those really offer any sort of improvement.

ITB's is an obvious answer, but then maintaining factory reliability with tuning these can be very complicated.
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 10:06 AM   #37
squidmaster
R3VLimited
 
squidmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,660
Those are results from my stock m20 intake manifold tests, yes.
1-6 represents cylinder 1-6. Each cylinder is coded to draw the same amount, so any limitation and difference is strictly down to the manifold. No intake system to hinder flow either.
__________________

squidmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 10:18 AM   #38
squidmaster
R3VLimited
 
squidmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,660
So, something that I've read before, but have no way to confirm, is that every AFM was set to the same spring-rate. I suppose the only way to confirm this is to check with someone that actually assembled the components at the factories.... I have a feeling that most of the AFMs that are different have been adjusted by someone over the course of the 25+ years. Guess there's really no way to know unless someone here knows? Because why would one car be set to a tighter rate while another has a weaker rate? That would produce two cars that operate differently.

ITBs are the answer for a race car yeah, but sitting in traffic and drawing in road gunk on a daily driver is not ideal (why don't you people use filters/covers, seriously, you're losing what? 1hp MAYBE? And it's for safety!)
__________________

squidmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 10:26 AM   #39
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidmaster View Post
So, something that I've read before, but have no way to confirm, is that every AFM was set to the same spring-rate. I suppose the only way to confirm this is to check with someone that actually assembled the components at the factories.... I have a feeling that most of the AFMs that are different have been adjusted by someone over the course of the 25+ years. Guess there's really no way to know unless someone here knows? Because why would one car be set to a tighter rate while another has a weaker rate? That would produce two cars that operate differently.

ITBs are the answer for a race car yeah, but sitting in traffic and drawing in road gunk on a daily driver is not ideal (why don't you people use filters/covers, seriously, you're losing what? 1hp MAYBE? And it's for safety!)


I agree.
But is there any solution for a better standard manifold that offers more torque AND power, but doesn't cost as much as ITB's?

And I don't get the whole open trumpet thing either. Same as carbs, just buy individual foam filters. I can almost guarantee the loss in flow can't be felt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 10:43 AM   #40
squidmaster
R3VLimited
 
squidmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,660
None on the market that I know of. Yet.......
__________________

squidmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 03:34 PM   #41
digger
No R3VLimiter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sydney, Oz
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidmaster View Post
Fwiw I've seen the markD tunes from MM and they're not even eBay quality.
funny that was what the tuner told me to in a round about kind of way, it was an ok start point and ran the engine well enough but required a fair bit of work

Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
And I don't get the whole open trumpet thing either. Same as carbs, just buy individual foam filters. I can almost guarantee the loss in flow can't be felt.
socks cost hp my own dyno testing and one of the guys on e30tech showed its atleast 10-15whp from memory and thats a dry foam, add oil and it gets worse this is my experience with the ramair and piper cross foam stuff

this is the twin style socks that doesnt seem to work well, others i never bothered to investigate further, the proper design is an airbox and better filter as it makes more power than open trumpets anyway and attracts less unwanted attention and easier to live with.

http://www.pipercross.net/dual-trump..._p24039461.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
But is there any solution for a better standard manifold that offers more torque AND power, but doesn't cost as much as ITB's?
its simple enough, use the RHD manifold and spacers without the throttles and fab up a airbox/plenum to use with a single larger TB.

you'll have alot less throttle response due to huge volume between engine and throttle plate, perhaps even less response than OEM manifold as the OEM plenum is quite small but runners are long so maybe the net effect is the same.

WOT power and torque will be the same as the RHD setup if you preserve the runner length and taper. idle and driveability will suffer with big performance cam. part throttle power will be lower as you dont have the partially closed throttles to dampen reversion pulses at low rpm


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedFirebird View Post
Another fallacy is that a bigger MAF = more power (or AFM in the old days of m30 AFM swaps), when in reality if the MAF is larger than the throttle body, point is moot. The MAF diameter needs to be no bigger then the throttle plate. I also have tested BBTB's both on my flow bench and dyno. Going from a 62 to 65mm TB, it was not even a measurable gain aside from initial tip in (obviously more air is getting "gulped" initially).
the stock AFM is about 4-5% smaller effective cross section than the 60 mm TB. i don't believe the hype about BBTB either, if there are any gains its probably more about how it affects intake resonance as both the tube size and length leading to the plenum are variables that can be tuned. however others have reported that MAP reading at WOT high rpm is below atmospheric by several kpa so might as well be driving up in the mountains. still after over a decade never seen anyone post up legitimate non affiliated gains from BBTB on a m20, doesnt mean there arent any though like you say probably not worth mentioning.
__________________
89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works...

new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505

digger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 03:38 PM   #42
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

The RHD setup made into a manifold with a single TB would be a net loss then IMO.
Even on a race track, torque in lower rpm's is more important than high end HP to me.

I can't imagine the R&D involved but it would be cool for someone to make a performance M20 intake manifold for NA use that doesn't have the cost or complex tuning involved with ITB's.

I think DCOE 40's might be the solution here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2016, 07:13 PM   #43
digger
No R3VLimiter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sydney, Oz
Posts: 3,654
For a mild street engine I think it would be not that much difference (downsides) . Not ideal but some might prefer it over relative complexity and tuning of itb. Lack of itb doesn't seem to hurt Porsche when still made na engines
__________________
89 E30 325is Lachs Silber - currently M20B31, M20B33 in the works...

new build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=317505


Last edited by digger; 12-30-2016 at 07:20 PM.
digger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2016, 06:41 AM   #44
berlow94
E30 Enthusiast
 
berlow94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hancock, VT
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by digger View Post
For a mild street engine I think it would be not that much difference (downsides) . Not ideal but some might prefer it over relative complexity and tuning of itb. Lack of itb doesn't seem to hurt Porsche when still made na engines
I think the answer here is a variable volume intake manifold.
Porsche Vario-ram or BMW DISA.

I wonder if we could adapt an M54 manifold to the M20.

Anyone have any ideas about that?
__________________
The best one-stop shopping for German car parts and lifestyle: http://www.gutenparts.com/
berlow94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2016, 12:33 PM   #45
whitebulat22
Grease Monkey
 
whitebulat22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by berlow94 View Post
I think the answer here is a variable volume intake manifold.
Porsche Vario-ram or BMW DISA.

I wonder if we could adapt an M54 manifold to the M20.

Anyone have any ideas about that?
I think an m54 manifold would be killer on an m20, but i don't think it's ever gonna happen if no one even went through with a simpler m50 intake swap. People have been trying everything to delete the crab any way possible for a while. Someone even ran one with a m70 intake on motronic but no 24v stuff I've seen.
whitebulat22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2004 - 2020 R3VLimited LLC