R3VLimited Forums

Go Back   R3VLimited Forums > General Forums > Off Topic Lounge > Politics and Religion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-06-2018, 04:23 PM   #736
frankenbeemer
R3VLimited
 
frankenbeemer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Clemson, SC
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Brick View Post
Bullshit. I'm an American and I like Antifa, so does my 70 year old father in Ohio, so does my 65 year old Mother in Michigan. Stop telling lies, it's literally just you, other fascists, and those who have been misled by right-wing media who don't like Antifa.

Props to you, Decay, you are about the only reasonable person I have seen in these last several pages. For the sake of this country, more people need to take a very serious stand against the rise of fascism in America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
ok, now that we've heard "logical fallacy: appeal to popularity" and "contrarian ackshually", let's have the actual "data".

Not a logical fallacy but a rebuttal.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by JinormusJ View Post
Don't buy an e30

They're stupid
Currently driving a beater 1979 240D 4 speed while my cabrio languishes in an airplane hanger for want of a driveshaft and a top.
frankenbeemer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 07:26 PM   #737
decay
R3V Elite
 
decay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: yay area, ca
Posts: 5,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by cale View Post
Now change that politically motivated graffiti for tossing trash cans into Starbucks windows or tossing piss bottles and you'll be able to get a reasonable guesstimation on how the general public perceives those actions. They're not the same.
what i'm trying to put down here is that i've never done or seen anyone do either of those things in the course of taking direct action.

the media's portrayal of what antifa does is unsurprisingly inaccurate.

"art/vandalism for a political cause" is much more in line with what i've done with our local group, and a lot of the time we'll do something like rent a uhaul pickup, throw a generator and projector in the back, and put messages on the outside wall of a government building- you can't even call that vandalism, as there's no property damage involved.

at this point, i've spent 10x as much time arguing here on r3v about what antifa really is/does as i have actually taking action myself, and the closest i've come to breaking the law is saying "fuck you, make me" when a cop told me to move back from their security cordon around a group of proud boy assholes that showed up to the memorial of a girl who'd been murdered by a white supremacist. i got hit, but not arrested, for that.

other than that, my locality has been quiet, and we/i have done exactly what i said we would in the absence of a threat- went back to our lives.

i don't know who you think the movement consists of, but we all have lives, jobs, relationships, and hobbies (in my case, vehicles and music)- like, are you imagining a george-soros-funded resistance cell occupying some abandoned building and storing a cache of piss bottles? because that's not what's happening.
__________________
past:
1989 325is (learner shitbox)
1986 325e (turbo dorito)
1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
current:
1985 323i baur (project on hold)
2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)
decay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 07:29 PM   #738
decay
R3V Elite
 
decay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: yay area, ca
Posts: 5,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenbeemer View Post
Not a logical fallacy but a rebuttal.
no it wasn't... he literally just said "nobody likes you". that's not an argument.
__________________
past:
1989 325is (learner shitbox)
1986 325e (turbo dorito)
1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
current:
1985 323i baur (project on hold)
2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)
decay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 09:21 PM   #739
frankenbeemer
R3VLimited
 
frankenbeemer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Clemson, SC
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
no it wasn't... he literally just said "nobody likes you". that's not an argument.

Nope, just pointing out Vincent Brick provided a 3 person poll that included his mom and dad while you were worried about the Rasmussen Reports bias. I thought you'd be amused by that.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by JinormusJ View Post
Don't buy an e30

They're stupid
Currently driving a beater 1979 240D 4 speed while my cabrio languishes in an airplane hanger for want of a driveshaft and a top.
frankenbeemer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 07:35 AM   #740
z31maniac
I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
 
z31maniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 17,155
Send a message via AIM to z31maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
what i'm trying to put down here is that i've never done or seen anyone do either of those things in the course of taking direct action.

the media's portrayal of what antifa does is unsurprisingly inaccurate.

How is it inaccurate? Or are you now trying to intimate that actual footage of Antifa, trashing businesses that never supported the big Cheetoh to begin with, is false/doctored/state actors?
__________________
Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
Chief Sales Officer, Midwest DivisionóBlunt Tech Industries

www.gutenparts.com
One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

z31maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 08:05 AM   #741
frankenbeemer
R3VLimited
 
frankenbeemer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Clemson, SC
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
what i'm trying to put down here is that i've never done or seen anyone do either of those things in the course of taking direct action.

Poll (with n = 1) conclusively proves Antifa is good.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by JinormusJ View Post
Don't buy an e30

They're stupid
Currently driving a beater 1979 240D 4 speed while my cabrio languishes in an airplane hanger for want of a driveshaft and a top.
frankenbeemer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 02:20 PM   #742
MalignantTrinket
Noobie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Tulips
Posts: 4
So I was in a coffee joint the other day, one of those sort of "hipster" ones with quirky trinkets and whatnot displayed all over. In one counter spot, there were some big pins of Mao, seemingly big patriotic ones (or replicas). Seeing that got me thinking about how ridiculously bad history lessons are, or at least how lop-sided they are.

If this place had Hitler pins on display, they would be out of business within 2 days of it being front-page news. Yet, for whatever insane reason, displaying images of Mao is considered OK, "ironic" and even in many circles, an affirmation of one's progressive cred. When I clicked into this subforum and saw this thread up top, I noted that OP mentioned that Antifa is made up of a bunch of "progressive radicals", of which a large cohort are self-proclaimed communists.

Anything and everything under the sun is decried as fascist and worthy of violent resistance these days. One of Trump's goons mis-stated some statistic as being 88% (versus 84%) and it literally made front-page news as being a dog-whistle to white supremacists and fascists. Now, unless I am mistaken, the main objection to fascism is that it has murderous results. Right? All-up, fascism killed a LOT of people, most of them 100% deliberately (ethnic cleansing, political purges, because-we-can intimidation). It is SO bad that anyone even suspected of harboring sympathy to fascism is fair game for harassment and violence from today's resistance.

OK, so where on earth am I going with this?

Back to the Mao pin and Antifa having a HUGE cohort of communists in it, all claiming to be fighting for the forces of good. Let's go over some basic historical facts from the last century. The three largest body counts:

Hitler: 17 million
Mao: 50-80 million (they weren't quite as good with the bookkepping as the Germans)
Stalin: 23 million

These are widely considered the most horrific figures in history, in terms of actions, and especially in terms of deaths. One is a fascist. Two are communists. The fascist's count was almost 100% deliberate and the result of technologies specifically created to exterminate human life. The communists easily dwarfed that with starvation alone (someone PLEASE try to make the argument that "oops" makes it OK), and then when you add in the genocides and purges of "undesirable social elements" it is right up there with the Fascist. Communism's murderousness exceeds that of fascism by a wide margin, with documentation proving it beyond any possible argument to the contrary.

Antifa runs around "fighting fascism" because it proved to be a murderous scourge (note that I agree about that part, less so on whether we actually have fascists in any serious number existing today), while having a huge internal element full of people who are avowed lovers of an even MORE murderous ideology. People with the slightest suspicion of sympathy to fascism are harrassed, yet people who are openly pro-communism are somehow running around with some sort of claim to the moral high ground, and the other "lovers of human life" are right there next to them fighting the good fight? Sorry, it makes no sense, and anyone with a 7th grade understanding of history wrote Antifa off the second they saw who all was comprising it. The political left has gone so far off the rails that you can actually walk down the street in a Mao or Stalin shirt and expect to both NOT be harrassed and in many places receive a high-five. The facts of reality are that those are as bad as wearing a Hitler shirt if any of the same metrics of "badness" are applied uniformly.

I will give Antifa one point at least. Back in Hitler's time, the communists and fascists were duking it out as mortal enemies. So there is some sort of historical consistency there, I guess. Had the communists won-out in Germany, even MORE people probably would have died, but I guess it would have been "all in the name of progress" since the inevitable famine would not have targeted the Jewish population specifically. So if random people on the street, who may or may not be fascist sympathizers, are worthy of receiving physical violence, then I hope that the non-communists in Antifa wise up and start throwing some punches at the communists next to them. You and your family are more likely to end up dead (probably from starvation) if those guys get to run things.



The socialist cohort, when judging by history, is not all that far behind the fascists either. South America has a lot of unmarked mass graves from the glorious push toward socialist utopia, many of which are being dug right now.

Last edited by MalignantTrinket; 12-10-2018 at 02:29 PM.
MalignantTrinket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 04:42 PM   #743
Exodus_2pt0
R3V Elite
 
Exodus_2pt0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: VA, 20109
Posts: 5,851
One hell of a first post right there.
__________________
No E30 Club
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Anyways, mustangs are gay and mini vans are faster than your car, you just have to deal with that.
Exodus_2pt0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 11:01 PM   #744
gwb72tii
No R3VLimiter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: in the great PNW
Posts: 3,727
All of which, including the nazis, are left wing ideologies
__________________
ďThere is nothing government can give you that it hasnít taken from you in the first placeĒ
Sir Winston Churchill
gwb72tii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:00 AM   #745
MalignantTrinket
Noobie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Tulips
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_2pt0 View Post
One hell of a first post right there.
Years lurking for E30 tech tips, and shooting the political s**t gets me signed up lol. It happens, I guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwb72tii View Post
All of which, including the nazis, are left wing ideologies
The murderous ideologies all have a lot in common, but they can't all be conveniently lumped into a left or right bin. The spectrum along which the extreme right and extreme right lie is, contrary to most people's perception, NOT a straight line with a left end and a right end. It is a circle, with the extreme ends curled up and connected. This diagram sums it up pretty well.



The lunatic fringe "sides" have much more in common with each other than they do with any of the mainstream political organizations and the people in them. Every time the lunatics get into power, it is with promises of utopia. Utopia always seems to require a lot of dead people, because you know, it's just one more little group of undesirables that are ruining everything and need to be dispatched. "Last one, I promise! Well, OK, also that one, and that one, and now that I think about it, that one too."
MalignantTrinket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM   #746
decay
R3V Elite
 
decay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: yay area, ca
Posts: 5,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalignantTrinket View Post
OP mentioned that Antifa is made up of a bunch of "progressive radicals", of which a large cohort are self-proclaimed communists.
OP is an anarchist. My feelings on communism should not be hard to extrapolate from there.

What do you want me to do? Convince communists that they *should* like fascism?

I guess if I have to break it down into the kind of simple language that will prevent z31m from getting confused again:

Let's fix the big problem first. After that we'll figure out how much "order and structure" I'll agree to.

For right now: an actual Nazi has just been sentenced to life in prison plus a few hundred years for murdering Heather Heyer, and I'm satisfied with that outcome.
__________________
past:
1989 325is (learner shitbox)
1986 325e (turbo dorito)
1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
current:
1985 323i baur (project on hold)
2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)
decay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM   #747
MalignantTrinket
Noobie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Tulips
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
OP is an anarchist. My feelings on communism should not be hard to extrapolate from there.

What do you want me to do? Convince communists that they *should* like fascism?

I guess if I have to break it down into the kind of simple language that will prevent z31m from getting confused again:

Let's fix the big problem first. After that we'll figure out how much "order and structure" I'll agree to.

For right now: an actual Nazi has just been sentenced to life in prison plus a few hundred years for murdering Heather Heyer, and I'm satisfied with that outcome.
If you got the impression that I was trying to argue that fascism is "better" than communism, then I really don't know where to start. It seemed pretty clear that fascism AND communism are both horrible when judging both by the same metrics. The main metric is, of course, murderousness. Technically, communism actually is worse, but they are both so bad that neither one deserves another try.

What is "the big problem" exactly? If it is "fascists" then it just seems like fabricated nonsense. The number of self-avowed fascists today is ludicrously small, and even if you assume 10x that number are closet-cases, it is still going to be much less than the number of card-carrying communists out there. Seeing as how communism killed something like a hundred million people in less than a century (and that is likely less than the actual total, but communism killed people faster than they could be counted or admitted to by the responsible parties), it seems like a much better candidate for "the big problem" than fascism if reality is actually being observed.

All of that wraps back around to Antifa's stated goals (per the graphic in the OP) and the massive gap that exists between those goals, the "members" ideologies and the actions being undertaken. One can only conclude that Antifa members either don't actually care about whether or not an ideology is murderous as long as it is one they agree with, or that the really have not put any serious thought into the people that they associate with. You align with anarchists, but are part of an organization that has a lot of communists in it. That's like someone being pro-gun-control and claiming to be a hardcore libertarian...it doesn't compute.

Really, just answer these for me:
- Do you disagree that communism is as murderous as fascism?
- If people who fancy themselves fascists can rightly be assaulted due to the threat that they pose to freedom and the sanctity of human life, why are self-avowed communists exempt?
MalignantTrinket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:16 PM   #748
decay
R3V Elite
 
decay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: yay area, ca
Posts: 5,078
See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork.

The important metric is the current threat.

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).
__________________
past:
1989 325is (learner shitbox)
1986 325e (turbo dorito)
1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
current:
1985 323i baur (project on hold)
2013 ninja 300 (way more fun than a car)
decay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM   #749
cale
R3VLimited
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 2,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).
Sounds amateurish, communists are much better at killing than that.
cale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM   #750
MrBurgundy
No R3VLimiter
 
MrBurgundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: 33.8170į N 118.0373į W
Posts: 3,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by decay View Post
See, this is the difference between people who perceive their keyboard as an ivory tower, and people who've done fieldwork.

The important metric is the current threat.

Communists are not driving cars into crowds of people protesting peacefully, or shooting up synagogues, or (list continues).
The only "threat" of fascism today is by antifa.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by wholepailofwater View Post
Q


WTB: Dove Grey e36 Front Door Panels (2 door)
MrBurgundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2004 - 2020 R3VLimited LLC