Exhaust cam put in intake m50nv?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • 5mall5nail5
    Advanced Member
    • Aug 2008
    • 156

    #31
    Originally posted by nando
    uhm, it doesn't work that way. VE is directly related to torque - you can't increase VE, and horsepower, and not increase torque. It's also not neccesarily true that more lift/duration leads to a torque loss in the low end. That depends a lot on lobe seperation, which is why vanos is such a big deal.
    Yes you can. You increase horsepower at a given RPM by making more torque. But, what usually happens with camshafts is, make more horsepower by maintaining torque and revving an engine higher. Horsepower is a calculated, derived output based exclusively by torque at a given RPM. Therefore, you don't need to make MORE torque to make horsepower, you just need to maintain torque and make more revs.

    You can actually make less torque as well, so long as your revs are high enough.

    Case in point - BMW motor making 175 tq at 6800 RPM makes 226 bhp. A formula 1 car making 175 tq at 18,000 RPM makes 600 bhp. I just increased horsepower without making a change to torque at all. The majority of aftermarket cam shafts have the same or maybe slightly more lift, but a good bit more duration - this helps keep the engine breathing once the pistons start flying. The motors don't make much more torque at all, they just don't fall off like they do on stock cams, and therefore since HP = ( tq x rpm)/5252, and they hold their torque at a higher RPM, horsepower goes up. But again, horsepower is just a derived number. If you had an engine that made 175 ft lb @ 6800 and an engine that makes only 90 ft lb at 18,000 the 90 ft lb would STILL make 310 hp. But that goes against what you claimed :)

    Its the same reason why a 700 hp HPF car will lose a race to an E36 M5x/S5x (non s54) car with 700 hp. The reason the HPF cars make so much horsepower is because the formula works to their advantage taking relatively weak torque numbers (for what they are) but running 8500 RPM. An S54 only needs to make 433 ft/lb to be a 700 hp car whereas a lower revving M50 variant... to be called a 700 hp car, needs to be producing 540 ft lb of torque at redline, which is a much more powerful engine given the redline is closer to 6800 - 7000. If you ran the S54 to 6800 RPM its only a 560 hp motor, not nearly as impressive. So a cam provides more horsepower not by increasing torque, but by maintaining it. If your car made 200 tq at 5200 RPM and fell off to 180 by 7000, and a new cam made 200 tq at 5200 RPM and fell off to only 190 by 7000, you didn't "make more torque" in terms of peak numbers, you just kept it from falling off... increasing the calculated horsepower.

    I didn't say that lift hurt low end torque, it almost always does not, however longer duration almost always does. Being that this instance is not about VANOS I did not feel it was necessary to bring that up.

    Comment

    • nando
      Moderator
      • Nov 2003
      • 34827

      #32
      I understand that. but also, given that you can quite easily adjust the LSA and timing on a DOHC motor, you could dyno tune your cam timing so you can increase torque and HP (by sacrificing some of the top end gain for a broader curve). It's not a one way street (IE you can only make HP, that it only shifts the curve to the right, etc), that was the point I was trying to make.
      Build thread

      Bimmerlabs

      Comment

      • 5mall5nail5
        Advanced Member
        • Aug 2008
        • 156

        #33
        Right - you could go the other way too :) To the left (which is what yields a broader, flatter curve). But the point is, with the intake cam topic at hand, going from a 228* to a 240* regardless of lift IS going to shift to the right, losing low torque, for higher horsepower... but its likely VERY marginal and not worth the effort.

        Comment

        • nando
          Moderator
          • Nov 2003
          • 34827

          #34
          I believe the LSA affects low end torque a lot more than overall duration, since with more overlap more intake gasses will go out the exhaust, than with less overlap (wider seperation).

          But, I suppose a dyno would be more useful than theory..
          Build thread

          Bimmerlabs

          Comment

          • 5mall5nail5
            Advanced Member
            • Aug 2008
            • 156

            #35
            Right which is why VANOS is available. I wouldn't want to run a VANOS intake cam (228 deg?) just for low end torque because the high end would suck so bad. But, given the VANOS can move the cam out some 12 deg it works out nicely. Wide separation helps low end, but severely hurts top end. You could dial in LSA for a compromise but given the relationship, its really the intake cam that alters things drastically, so the exhaust side is just an average change. If you try and change LSA static on the intake side very much the engine runs terribly at idle.

            Comment

            • lowerjon
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 2

              #36
              Cold air intake is mainly a device which brings comparatively cooler air, to the car’s internal combustion engine, and thus, increases the engine power and efficiency. Air intake systems contribute to a substantial increase in the horsepower. This is an inexpensive way to increase the efficiency of your car engine.

              Cold air systems have four parts. They include two mandrel-bent aluminum piping, one billet-aluminum MAF adaptor and one high flow filter. These systems generally tend to add 3-5 horse power, to the engine. The sound wave generated by an intake system and its frequency varies greatly, depending upon the length of the system; the longer the system, the lower the frequency. With all the usual intake systems, as the RPM increases, the inlet valve opening also increases accordingly; but the length of the inlet tract remains constant throughout. air intake
              there is a little pipe going from the engine to the airbox and the air box is still drawing air even though the K&N is fitted the the main air pipe thanks

              Comment

              • JGood
                R3V OG
                • Jan 2004
                • 7959

                #37
                Spambots are getting pretty damn impressive.
                85 325e m60b44 6 speed / 89 535i
                e30 restoration and V8 swap
                24 Hours of Lemons e30 build

                Comment

                Working...