S50/S52 swap... is it worth it?

[Bimmerman325i]

I'll admit even I could do it slightly cheaper the 2nd time around(hindsight's 20/20), but if you think you can do it for 6k feel free to try and let me know how it works out. I've done the s54 swap and totaled the receipts and it's getting more affordable all the time but it isn't that cheap quite yet. 8k-9k could be tight but quite possible if you got the donor motor cheap enough.

Right, I didn't include in the $6k the cooling/exhaust/misc costs, but they aren't all that different from an S50/2 swap, so I'm just using that as a constant cost for both swaps.

I mentioned that I didn't include any of that. The $6k is the cost for motor and electronics/DBW kit. That DIRECTLY compares to the $2-3k cost for an S50/2 + electronics without mods. All other costs are not much different, and are assumed to be constant.

please, share the dyno sheet of a 300whp S50. It must spin up to 8500rpm to keep the VE up high enough?

we all know dynojets are optimistic.

and naturally, you're still using correction factors pulled from thin air to arrive at your 300hp crank with simple bolt ons. If you had an actual engine dyno, I'd be less skeptical.

Correction factors, sure. What you can tell is that, for Chris's car at least, he went from 207whp to 245whp, and when you consider that there is a 15-18% drivetrain loss, that is more like 50-60bhp at the crank increase over stock, putting the engine in the 290-300bhp range. This isn't rocket science: take the delta from stock to modded, multiply by drivetrain loss figures (240bhp->207whp stock, hint: 16% loss), and wow.....pretty clear. Add tuning for the mods and the 245whp would undoubtedly go higher.

As for the 300whp curve, take a look at the following dyno. The motor has Shrick cams, lightly ported head (didn't do anything vs non-ported head, look at 2nd dyno), Conforti Eurosport OBDII cam S/W, KK headers, AA race exhaust. The only change on the Evosport cam runs is the Evosoprt cams.

WITHOUT tuning or playing with vanos limiting or cam timing, it pulled 290whp. WITH tuning, the IP guys are making 300+whp.



And to quiet you guys bitching about the "ported head," here are TWO dynos of guys without ported heads, but with the headers/AA race exhaust/Shrick Cams/OBD2 S52.


Mods: Conforti/Eurosport Shrick cam kit, pullies, bbtb, intake boot, KK headers and AA race exhaust.

Look at the upper portion of the curve. Owner reports misfire, possible bad gas, but car was on its way to making 270 whp NA with the Shrick cams and NO ported head.


Same day, same dyno, different cars, different cams:


Shrick is red curve, Sunbelt SPORT is blue curve. You can also clearly see why it makes no sense to rev the S52 past 7000rpm.

Mods:

Shrick car: Eurosport Shrick Cam Kit, UUC Pulleys, UUC Stage 2 LTW Flywheel, AA Gen I headers, AA Track Pipe, AA Gen III Exhaust

Sunbelt car: Bimmerworld Sunbelt Sport OBD2 kit, UUC Pulleys, UUC Stage 2 LTW Flywheel, AA Gen 2 headers, AA Track Pipe, AA Gen III Exhaust


97 M3
Mods: 3.5" Afe intake, Porsche 3.5" MAF, US SS headers/mids, Stromung exhaust, 3.46 LSD, BBTB, UDP's, fan delete, OBDI Manifold swap, 24lb injectors, Shrick cams, Conforti software.

I think I've made my point. 300whp is possible from an S52 with proper tuning and cam timing, 260-270whp is the norm for a Shrick cammed car, 240-250 is normal for all other bolt ons. I've done seriously extensive research on S50 vs S52 vs S54, and the costs to not only swap one in an e30 but also an e36.

[mr.vang]

I just had an offer from a buddy at a shop that would do a full swap for me at around 2,500 bucks. I would need to supply the motor, tranny and a few other small things. This a good deal?

My current M20 is on it's last legs, not sure what I'll do but I plan on saving up for awhile.

Is the swap worth it? Is it that much more fun?

since your in CA, i'll bring up the smog/registration issue. i believe if you let a shop swap it for you, its easier to get it ref. so you don't have to go through a whole bunch of crap.

[z31maniac]

Dunno man. I wouldn't call this common. There are hundreds of those cars with those bolt on mods and tjey are not making 250whp off a CAI, exhaust, midsection and pullies. These mods are good for 1-2hp real world. Exhuast? A catback? Does close to nothing. A "CAI" is close to nothing. THese are mods that have been around for a decade for these cars and years of dyno sheets. Just have not seen these types of gains from that mod list.

YMMV.

My OBD-I S52 with 3.5 MAF, TMS equal length headers with a Burns 2-1 3" collector, TRM tune and 2.5" catback put down 235whp on a weak headgasket. I bet with pullies and a fresh headgasket it would have been in the low 240s.

I know the guy who bought the engine from me once fixed and he is VERY happy with it's performance.

But I bet most of that power is in the headers/tune. So if you are using eBay/Raceland/crap headers, you aren't going to match those numbers. But nobody here is willing to drop $1000 on headers when the engine itself cost $1500.

[ACHTUNG]

A shadetree mechanic that has done this swap a few times quoted me ~$1500 for the labor to do my S52 swap.

[bimmerteck]

Haven't seen these 3500 dollar Engine, Trans, DME and wiring. I have seen 5-6K ones though. Then you add in 3K for tuning/electronics and you are at what? 8-9K? What about the driveshaft? Engine mounts? Trans mount? What about the actual trans brace? Is there an OEM driveshaft to use? Need a Guibo. Yes and then exhaust and some sort of intake. What cooling system setup do you use?

There is more to a swap than "Engine/trans and a DEM". I think you are skipping a lot of cost and/or skimping on parts. I have estimated and bee told expect 10K to swap an S54 at minimum to be done right. You can claim otherwise and I'll let you have your opinion...

However once I am at 8K? M52 + Turbo. Weight? Maybe it is slightly heavier. It will make more power. Will be super reliable because to make more power than that S54 requires low boost. It makes cooler noises. If you pop a motor it isn't another 5K to replace it. It is 500-800 bucks.

Sorry but IMO the S54 is not a 'budget minded' swap into any BMW.

Don't forget the oil cooler setup, headers, exhaust, Brake booster/masterless setup, drive by wire to mechanical conversion, and fuel pressure regulator/filter setup.

[Suspence]

I'll pay someone to do it in Socal to find a motor, tranny and install it... throw a price at me as long as it's lower than what this shop charged me :).

[dinanm3atl]

Have you looked at dynos recently? I know of five or six dynojet 240-250whp S52s WITHOUT cams or as full/expensive exhaust as Chris has. That power range is pretty normal for a bolt on S52 without cams. WITH cams (Schrick-Sunbelt-Sunbelt Race-Evosport), the same motors do ~260-300whp, all NA. Granted, 260whp is much more drivable than 300whp, but my point is that cams are absolutely not needed for 300 NA crank horsepower.

I can provide dyno sheets that aren't Chris's motor if you want.

Dunno man. I wouldn't call this common. There are hundreds of those cars with those bolt on mods and tjey are not making 250whp off a CAI, exhaust, midsection and pullies. These mods are good for 1-2hp real world. Exhuast? A catback? Does close to nothing. A "CAI" is close to nothing. THese are mods that have been around for a decade for these cars and years of dyno sheets. Just have not seen these types of gains from that mod list.

YMMV.

[dinanm3atl]

Um, when was the last time you looked at prices?

S54+6spd+DME+wiring goes for $3500-$5k all day long nowadays. Add $3k for the ABL or Bimmerworld electronics kit, and you have a bolt-in S54 running in your car for $6-8k. Of course, you need exhaust, but you need that for an S50/2 swap also so for cost comparisons it can be ignored.

S54 is a very very attractive swap candidate. For the cost of an S50/2 swap + bolt ons or S50/2 swap + used supercharger, you have more horsepower, more reliable engine, less weight(vs FI), and a much better track motor.

Haven't seen these 3500 dollar Engine, Trans, DME and wiring. I have seen 5-6K ones though. Then you add in 3K for tuning/electronics and you are at what? 8-9K? What about the driveshaft? Engine mounts? Trans mount? What about the actual trans brace? Is there an OEM driveshaft to use? Need a Guibo. Yes and then exhaust and some sort of intake. What cooling system setup do you use?

There is more to a swap than "Engine/trans and a DEM". I think you are skipping a lot of cost and/or skimping on parts. I have estimated and bee told expect 10K to swap an S54 at minimum to be done right. You can claim otherwise and I'll let you have your opinion...

However once I am at 8K? M52 + Turbo. Weight? Maybe it is slightly heavier. It will make more power. Will be super reliable because to make more power than that S54 requires low boost. It makes cooler noises. If you pop a motor it isn't another 5K to replace it. It is 500-800 bucks.

Sorry but IMO the S54 is not a 'budget minded' swap into any BMW.

[nando]

please, share the dyno sheet of a 300whp S50. It must spin up to 8500rpm to keep the VE up high enough?

we all know dynojets are optimistic.

and naturally, you're still using correction factors pulled from thin air to arrive at your 300hp crank with simple bolt ons. If you had an actual engine dyno, I'd be less skeptical.

[bimmerteck]

Um, when was the last time you looked at prices?

S54+6spd+DME+wiring goes for $3500-$5k all day long nowadays. Add $3k for the ABL or Bimmerworld electronics kit, and you have a bolt-in S54 running in your car for $6-8k. Of course, you need exhaust, but you need that for an S50/2 swap also so for cost comparisons it can be ignored.

S54 is a very very attractive swap candidate. For the cost of an S50/2 swap + bolt ons or S50/2 swap + used supercharger, you have more horsepower, more reliable engine, less weight(vs FI), and a much better track motor.

I'll admit even I could do it slightly cheaper the 2nd time around(hindsight's 20/20), but if you think you can do it for 6k feel free to try and let me know how it works out. I've done the s54 swap and totaled the receipts and it's getting more affordable all the time but it isn't that cheap quite yet. 8k-9k could be tight but quite possible if you got the donor motor cheap enough.

[Bimmerman325i]

Must have stumbled onto some secret as I know cars with those mods or very similar and they are not making the same power. As said before that exhaust cost almost as much as a used S/C kit so outside of making a bunch of noise it just is not worth spending that money. This is not typical gains for N/A bolt on mods.




Shoot. I want to know where all these 300hp S52s are that only have basic bolt-ons. And on top of that again... you will spend as much in N/A bolt-ons that supposedly get you to 300hp(or more) as it would to buy a used supercharger. I have heard of now 1 supposed '300hp' S52 and it is right here on this forum. All the E36 M3s are not putting down 245hp from basic bolt ons and the amount of money spent for that mod list is just too much for what you are getting.

Also the other thing to consider is I have seen a stock late model car put down 218 before. Thus considering if you got another strong factory motor your 'gains' are not as much as the estimation. There are plenty of threads on bf.c talking about the kind of gains you can see and what you can do. 300hp means cams for almost anyone you ask.

And yes. The N/V had this time period when everyone had a hard on for it but that time has passed. It isn't THAT great. I wouldn't waste your time on it. VANOS is a good thing.

Have you looked at dynos recently? I know of five or six dynojet 240-250whp S52s WITHOUT cams or as full/expensive exhaust as Chris has. That power range is pretty normal for a bolt on S52 without cams. WITH cams (Schrick-Sunbelt-Sunbelt Race-Evosport), the same motors do ~260-300whp, all NA. Granted, 260whp is much more drivable than 300whp, but my point is that cams are absolutely not needed for 300 NA crank horsepower.

I can provide dyno sheets that aren't Chris's motor if you want.

[Jav3]

Wow, this thread went longer than I thought it would. Good read.

[Bimmerman325i]

OK I am doing the math...

M52 + Turbo.

Plus the S54 motor alone is 6K so your 'math' might be a little bit off. What about trans? What about tuning? Parts to install? Sorry but an S54 is not the best or even close to the best swap candidate at this point.

Um, when was the last time you looked at prices?

S54+6spd+DME+wiring goes for $3500-$5k all day long nowadays. Add $3k for the ABL or Bimmerworld electronics kit, and you have a bolt-in S54 running in your car for $6-8k. Of course, you need exhaust, but you need that for an S50/2 swap also so for cost comparisons it can be ignored.

S54 is a very very attractive swap candidate. For the cost of an S50/2 swap + bolt ons or S50/2 swap + used supercharger, you have more horsepower, more reliable engine, less weight(vs FI), and a much better track motor.

[nando]

VANOS does not "cook" oil. It's a hydralic piston that moves back and forth, not much to it.

You're crazy. Vanos has a built in turbo, because turbo's also cook oil as part of their function. Duh. :p

[328ijunkie]

2500 labor? I charge a decent bit less than that.