S50/S52 swap... is it worth it?

[z31maniac]

lolling at the kids who've never had a 24v car dishing out advice on them.

[bimmerteck]

$2500 in labor? Certainly I didn't read that correctly?

If so, that's beyond a rip-off. If it was a friend, I'd help them do the swap for free, maybe make them buy some pizza and beer or something.

My customer's (turnkey) swaps usually run around 2k in labor for US spec motors, if the tech is prepping the donor motor and removing the m20 2500's about right. If the OP wants to save money and has the skills he should get and prep the donor motor before it's brought to the shop, but if he felt comfortable doing that he could likely complete the rest swap as well. The mechanics of these swaps are not complicated as swaps go, and the electrics aren't too bad if you can read the diagrams BMW provides. If you don't have the tools/place to work 2k+ to have the swap professionally completed could be a bargain.

[nando]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't m50nv have dual valve springs while all other vanos m5x/s5x motors do not?

ugh, I hate it when people post BS like this

who cares? the M20 has dual valve springs, nobody's doing 12v swaps? The later motors have better, lighter drivetrains, that don't need dual springs, and better, lighter bottom ends, that can rev higher out of the box. the NV motor is an antiquated relic compared to something like an M52B28.

also, I want to know where all these 300hp S50's are. The ones that didn't cost $10k to build..

[merrrr]

i dropped in the engine/tranny and didnt want to deal with the wiring... the shops doing a full wire tuck in the engine bay, interior wire tuck/ he custom fabbed the driveshaft support bearing from the e36 to work in my car, repairing rust spots in the trunk and various spots. throwing on the fenders hood bumper, fixing the mounting tab on my smoked euro smileys.setting up exhaust/shorty headers. the owner gave me a sick deal cus he loves e30s and custom engine swaps on all kids of cars. And the best part is he doing it all for 1500. moral of the story is talk him down!!! lol

[merrrr]

or just do as much by yourself as you can and then take it to him..

[dinanm3atl]

Well, my buddy's OBD2 S52 that only has M50, underdrive pullies, CAI, AA Race headers and AA race exhaust, and a conforti tune for a bone stock motor puts out 245whp (*1.18 = 290bhp). So I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on your numbers. An OBD1 S52 would be another 10hp or so higher, as would his if he had a tune for the mods. Or a 3.5" maf/CAI. Or cams.


For an S50, yes, you need all that stuff. For an S52, no, you really don't.

Must have stumbled onto some secret as I know cars with those mods or very similar and they are not making the same power. As said before that exhaust cost almost as much as a used S/C kit so outside of making a bunch of noise it just is not worth spending that money. This is not typical gains for N/A bolt on mods.

ugh, I hate it when people post BS like this

who cares? the M20 has dual valve springs, nobody's doing 12v swaps? The later motors have better, lighter drivetrains, that don't need dual springs, and better, lighter bottom ends, that can rev higher out of the box. the NV motor is an antiquated relic compared to something like an M52B28.

also, I want to know where all these 300hp S50's are. The ones that didn't cost $10k to build..

Shoot. I want to know where all these 300hp S52s are that only have basic bolt-ons. And on top of that again... you will spend as much in N/A bolt-ons that supposedly get you to 300hp(or more) as it would to buy a used supercharger. I have heard of now 1 supposed '300hp' S52 and it is right here on this forum. All the E36 M3s are not putting down 245hp from basic bolt ons and the amount of money spent for that mod list is just too much for what you are getting.

Also the other thing to consider is I have seen a stock late model car put down 218 before. Thus considering if you got another strong factory motor your 'gains' are not as much as the estimation. There are plenty of threads on bf.c talking about the kind of gains you can see and what you can do. 300hp means cams for almost anyone you ask.

And yes. The N/V had this time period when everyone had a hard on for it but that time has passed. It isn't THAT great. I wouldn't waste your time on it. VANOS is a good thing.

[nando]

^ easy, they're reverse calculated imaginary crank #s from an already inflated dyno sheet. you can pretty much make up any crank HP # you want with a correction factor pulled from thin air..

[sharky]

M52, gasket, studs and a well tuned pieced together turbo kit. S52 will never make 300 without FI and or major expensive internals. Hell my S52 obd1 w/ AA stg1 SC only does like 310whp

[phreshkid]

ugh, I hate it when people post BS like this

who cares? the M20 has dual valve springs, nobody's doing 12v swaps? The later motors have better, lighter drivetrains, that don't need dual springs, and better, lighter bottom ends, that can rev higher out of the box. the NV motor is an antiquated relic compared to something like an M52B28.

also, I want to know where all these 300hp S50's are. The ones that didn't cost $10k to build..

Cool your jets, it was merely a question as to why people tend to boost nv motors over their newer, vanos counterparts.

It was just a damn question.

[dinanm3atl]

^ easy, they're reverse calculated imaginary crank #s from an already inflated dyno sheet. you can pretty much make up any crank HP # you want with a correction factor pulled from thin air..

Right... very much so. Seen these 'special' S52s before but never in person. Pretty well known that to get to 300hp you need cams in a S5X motor. This will certainly give you the power that you want but also then requires tuning and really supporting mods to go along with the cam. 300hp N/A is as much if not more than just putting a turbo on it and having more HP.

M52, gasket, studs and a well tuned pieced together turbo kit. S52 will never make 300 without FI and or major expensive internals. Hell my S52 obd1 w/ AA stg1 SC only does like 310whp

That is more inline with the common gains to be seen on these motors. I agree with the recommendation but still going to spend a solid 3-4K for the piece together kit and quality tuning comes with a quality tuning price.

[dinanm3atl]

Cool your jets, it was merely a question as to why people tend to boost nv motors over their newer, vanos counterparts.

It was just a damn question.

Not anymore... maybe a couple years ago but with OBD2 tuning available and proper parts available for the M5X/S5X with VANOS the NV is kind of dead. Still some doing it but not nearly as big as before.

Even just a year or two ago the M52 was the 'choice' as it was stronger. Now that the proper parts are out there people are just turboing the S52.

M50NV to M52 to S52... kind of how things have gone.

[fsmtnbiker]

Must have stumbled onto some secret as I know cars with those mods or very similar and they are not making the same power. As said before that exhaust cost almost as much as a used S/C kit so outside of making a bunch of noise it just is not worth spending that money. This is not typical gains for N/A bolt on mods.

My car is the one David is talking about.

The dyno chart/info/video can be seen here.

FWIW, same day, same dyno, car before me was a similarly modded S50 that made 230whp and after me was an intake/pullies/header/exhaust/tune S54 that made 301whp. So it's pretty average readings from what I've seen.

I think it's pretty strong for an S52. However, what he didn't mention initially is that this is a pretty fresh bottom end (40k miles) with a fresh head (2k on it when the dyno was done.) No porting/headwork, stock cams, etc.

I suspect that I might be able to get 250 dynojet hp with a little bit of cam timing tweaking and tuning. This was on 91 octane.

I don't think it is very hard to get 240-250whp out of an S52. I would suggest that with-

CAI (I like the AFE, but in an E30 you can just do a custom?) - $275
Silicone Elbow - $100
M50 manifold - $300 w/kit
Pullies - $200
Raceland headers - $250
Custom 3" exhaust+muffler - $600
Tune - $300-600

So, even buying all this stuff new, you're looking at between $2000-2500. That's close to used supercharger territory, but I would suggest that an NA car is more driveable and has less weight on the nose vs. an FI car, and will absolutely be more reliable especially on track.

[Wanganstyle]

Cool your jets, it was merely a question as to why people tend to boost nv motors over their newer, vanos counterparts.

It was just a damn question.

you actually asked a GOOD question. Many people dont understand why you asked it- the NON vanos head is nice because it has no vanos, higher oil pressure - nice for a turbocharged motor as the oil is being COOKED by turbo, the Vanos destroys oil.

in my S52, fresh oil would turn black in 1-2 track days unless running TWS 10-60 @ $15/quart.

in the S54, the double vanos cooks the oil also, but i only ran TWS 10-60 in that motor. oiling system is also better than anything S52/m52 family.


I asked the same question and acted upon it a couple motors ago:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1379263

S52 car with M50 nonvanos HEAD + ADDED VANOS.

basically. keep the vanos, keep the S52 cams and S52, gain thicker valvestems (for durability not performance) and get free double valvesprings.

single beehive S52 valvespring is lighter, etc and more advanced.
BUT the dual valvespring M50 NV has a better chance of fighting coil bind at very high RPMs.



S52 is best used 100% out of the box obd2, or done up OBD1 with chip tune. Other than that, its a waste of money.
M50 family is economy motor, dont expect it to be a S54.

for real power, S54 is THE ANSWER.

old S52 with Nonvanos head installed:


S54 real power installed:




basically, do the math:

S52 swap (parts 3k)
s52 NA bolt on mods $3k easy (1.5k cams, .6k chips, .25k intake, .6k exhaust)

then u have a 6K S52. guess what; S54 costs the same and will walk you :) and will walk dyno tuned catless STi's on the freeway on 5 cylinders.

[nando]

"cooks" the oil? WTF, hahaha...

nice S54 in any case ;)

[Wanganstyle]

"cooks" the oil? WTF, hahaha...

nice S54 in any case ;)

yes!
borrow a E36M, change the oil and immediately go on track.

check your oil at the end of track day, it will be watery and BLACK.

MMMMMMMMM delicious M power cooking!

on flip side, does anyone know if such a thing as rear sump oil pan for M20 exists?

I want to put a M20 into my E36m and boost it, its lighter than the twincam and turbo makes up for it. anti-lag will take care of no vanos and crappy head ports :P