M60b40 VS s50b30 E30 Swap

[MattM]

hahahaha.... LOL so your main argument is M/S5x is easier so it's better?

You have no clue on the difference between the two, the importance of torque and you say it's a big chunk of iron when it's aluminum?!

Great job, maybe next time actually get INFORMED on the subject before posting BS.

my point was, that for all the extra work required to fit the m60, its hardly worth the gains.

And sorry, but i dont memorize the materials every single engine is made of.... i have better things to focus on.

[bmwmech1]

hahahaha.... LOL so your main argument is M/S5x is easier so it's better?

You have no clue on the difference between the two, the importance of torque and you say it's a big chunk of iron when it's aluminum?!

Great job, maybe next time actually get INFORMED on the subject before posting BS.

I lol'ed... I think this thread is a microcosm of every thread that deals with any non-stock modification on these cars.

1. Someone authors a thread about doing one mod vs. another to get what they think will be valuable input concerning their dilemma...
2. Initially, people add posts on what they think the OP should do, within the parameters of the original post...
3. The thread gets over-run with other people telling the OP what he should do, based on what they think is the way to do it... Some suggestions are worthwhile in their merit, but have nothing to do with the original post, other suggestions are filled with mis-information and still other suggestions hint at wildly expensive options, as the only "real" way to do it, yet most of these people have no first hand knowledge of anything they are suggesting.
4.Then the thread becomes a pit of bad information and the dark times ensue.
5.The thread gets forgotten and what starts with potential ends full of bad information and ugly posts.

I usually just read these types of threads for entertainment and try to steer clear of participating, but since I have first-hand knowledge of the OP's question, I posted in this thread. Hopefully, for the benefit of future searches, there have been a few posts of useful information and it sounds like the author has a pretty clear idea of what he's after, which is good. I have found myself reading this thread and asking myself more than once "what the hell are they talking about?". The reality is the only "best" modification is the one the car owner decides to do. Adding a bunch of posts to a thread that don't contribute to accurate information just to add to one's post count, is kind of ridiculous. I know when I add some mis-information to a thread, I'm embarrassed about it and quickly try to correct the bad info. I wonder if some posters even re-read what they post, since some of it is pretty outrageous. Kind of a shame that this seems to almost always happen, but tis the nature of a forum, I guess... It's still a good read...:)

Garey

What's up Jean?

[VinniE30]

^ The OP didin't really ask anything except "What would you do"?
He already said he knows about both swaps and what's involved.

Obviously there will be lots of different opinions and arguments for one engine swap over the other. Every choice for engine swap has its advantages and disadvantages.

Since people started talking about other V8 and choices other than the 2 OP asked about, things started getting heated.:firehop:

BTW, i'd rather have an M60/M62 than a US S50 in an e30.

[bmwmech1]

^ The OP didin't really ask anything except "What would you do"?
He already said he knows about both swaps and what's involved.

Obviously there will be lots of different opinions and arguments for one engine swap over the other. Every choice for engine swap has its advantages and disadvantages.

Since people started talking about other V8 and choices other than the 2 OP asked about, things started getting heated.:firehop:

BTW, i'd rather have an M60/M62 than a US S50 in an e30.

Actually, he said which one, M/S6x or M/S5x and put up a poll. Everyone chimes in with their opinion of every motor except the 2 choices and pandemonium erupts, lol! I just think it's funny how this always happens... that was more of my point.

And I agree with you, M/S6x>M/S5x and I'm out of this thread...

Garey

[Jean]

I lol'ed... I think this thread is a microcosm of every thread that deals with any non-stock modification on these cars.

What's up Jean?

Garey,

Sitting on $1500 worth of m62tu parts here and can't find anybody with the tools to lock the cams and set the vanos/timing etc LOL. Buying a set of these tools, no other choice. M60b40 is still sitting in the corner, but as soon as this m62tu is back in the e39, b40 will end up on the stand to get new hardware on it and then find it's way in the e30 :) Wish I could find an m62b44 locally short/longlock for a good price I would do what you are doing, but I may just have to go with b40 this time around. There is always VAC itbs for it hahaha.

Jean

[Mr. Burns]

Lots of good questions in this thread and I'll jump in since I'm in the middle of the M60/62 hybrid swap, as we speak. If you want a V8 in your E30, then an M/S5x isn't going to blow your skirt up, so to speak. Not knocking the 6 cylinder swap as it's straightforward and well documented and there are plenty of bad-ass M/S5x swapped cars running around with a ton more HP than an M6x car will make. That being said, I agree that it's been done and done well, whereas the V8 swaps are not as common, so the "wow" factor is a little higher. I think most of the larger hurdles have been covered, so lets talk about the M6x swap in a little more detail...

1. Transmission- either E34 530i 5 speed or E34, E39 or E39 M5 6 speed. Both require different clutch/flywheels, but either will work, effort varies. Mounts for 5 speed are stock E30, 6 speed has to be made.
2. Motor Mounts- can be bought or made, I made mine, pretty simple to do.
3. Cooling- E36M3 or Z3M radiator drops in, Z3M is the preference, since it's 3 row.
4. Exhaust- E38, E39 or X5 4.4 manifolds are necessary to start with, the rest has to be custom made... enough said
5. Braking- Easiest to source an E34 V8 brake setup and retrofit.
6. Electrics- 404 DME from an E34 or E32 V8 car, harness can be made for C101 connector pretty easily.
7. Driveshaft- E30 M3, E36 328i, early E36 M3 4 bolt are bolt in for the 5 speed, 6 speed is more work, due to longer length of trans.

That's about all of the major stuff to swap in a V8, minus the work/time involved. I researched this swap pretty heavily before I started my project, so I have a lot of answers to the questions that come up and I'm actually doing the swap now in my M3 project, so if anyone has any questions, just ask...:) I also own an E34 540 6 speed, so I'm very familiar with the powerplant(s) and what can and can't be done with them, as far as interchangability of parts, etc...

Garey

Garey-

I have a Q regarding the driveshaft.

an' early model E36 M3 REAR driveshaft is all I need? or do I need both front and rear?

this will be mated to a M60b30 tranny....

[Mr. Burns]

Aaannnnd....instead of oem X5 4.4 manifolds, ebay has some manifolds which bolt up to the m60 engine for about 300....thoughts?

[Mr Two]

Our shop is doing an LS1 swap right now, using Garret's guide...


Because the T56 is so frikken huge, the motor has to sit so far forward you lose most of the advantages of it sitting farther back. You can always modify the firewall, but that is a pain. We also had issues with the motors mounts sitting far too high, the clearance between the exhaust on the driver's side is really tight - it takes time, and there are headaches.

I want to say the M60 is lighter than the LS1, but I'm not sure. It can definitely sit father back in the engine bay, though! The 5 speed trans looks tiny, I'd imagine it's fairly light too. There appears to be more clearance for the driver's side manifold. You don't have to fuck with the oil pan, and if you raise the trans up more into the tunnel you don't have to lower the front subframe either. If you use a 5 speed from a 530i, you don't need a custom drivershaft. An OBD1 M62B44 makes ~270whp on a dynojet stock. I'll probably be able to pick one up this week for $100 if it's still there. Hell, I could buy a wrecked 540i or 740i from a friend of mine that runs a salvage yard for a grand. He has an M60 for sale right now for $500. They are FAR cheaper, and from what I've been reading, an easier swap.


Also, there's no way in HELL I'd be able to put down Ls1 power on the track until I have a lot more work done. Right now the S50 in my car is enough to run even with an e90 M3 on a highway pull. I could easily have another 50whp reliably. That's plenty, and I'd actually be able to use it. LS1s also have bad oil starvation problems on the track. From what I've seen, M60/62s do not.

If I end up going M60/62, I'll definitely miss my S52. It looks like an M60/62 is the better option, though.

[e30polak]

I want to say the M60 is lighter than the LS1, but I'm not sure.

LS1s also have bad oil starvation problems on the track. From what I've seen, M60/62s do not.

1. An LS1 is 12 lbs lighter than an s50/2 from what I recall, the t56 is 18lbs heavier than a ZF320. The m60/2 is at least 12-15 lbs heavier than an m/s5x motor.

2. If you set-up the LS1 properly, you wont have an issue with oil starvation. Please show me some actual M60/2 powered cars that actually see the track.

The added difficulty of the LSX engine is well worth it, as it's got way more power potential, way more reliable and is lighter then an m60/2.

[Mr. Burns]

Holy thread derailment.

Anything pertinent to what I was asking that's m60/e30 swap specific?

There's a whole other possibility to start up a whole new thread and discuss the cost to power and weight ratio to LS1's and everything else under the sun...

Let's try to keep this somewhat focused........

[Mr Two]

1. An LS1 is 12 lbs lighter than an s50/2 from what I recall, the t56 is 18lbs heavier than a ZF320. The m60/2 is at least 12-15 lbs heavier than an m/s5x motor.

2. If you set-up the LS1 properly, you wont have an issue with oil starvation. Please show me some actual M60/2 powered cars that actually see the track.

The added difficulty of the LSX engine is well worth it, as it's got way more power potential, way more reliable and is lighter then an m60/2.

Last time I saw a thread about weights, an LS1 was 500lbs + ~100lbs for the trans, and the S50/M52 were closer to 400lbs.

You'll still have oil starvation issues unless you get an accusump. I've been told this by many other people at the track, and I've seen it for myself. Corvette go boom. Two of them, actually.

There's a whole damn racing series that allows a stock M60 with engine management, and that's it. It was linked in one of the M60 threads.

How much power do you think a stock body e30 can put down on a track? Without aero, too. I won't have any aero till next summer at the earliest.

A good LS1 is at least 3k alone, too. Don't forget.

http://bmwv8capri.yolasite.com/the-bmw-m60-v8.php According to this link the M60 is less than 400 lbs.

[e30polak]

Last time I saw a thread about weights, an LS1 was 500lbs + ~100lbs for the trans, and the S50/M52 were closer to 400lbs.

You'll still have oil starvation issues unless you get an accusump. I've been told this by many other people at the track, and I've seen it for myself. Corvette go boom. Two of them, actually.

There's a whole damn racing series that allows a stock M60 with engine management, and that's it. It was linked in one of the M60 threads.

How much power do you think a stock body e30 can put down on a track? Without aero, too. I won't have any aero till next summer at the earliest.

A good LS1 is at least 3k alone, too. Don't forget.

http://bmwv8capri.yolasite.com/the-bmw-m60-v8.php According to this link the M60 is less than 400 lbs.

My mistake, I was misinformed. The LS1 + t56 is a good bit heavier, carry on gents. Didn't mean to bring any misinformation into this thread.

As far as the amount of power an e30 can handle on a track, it really depends on your suspension, weight and wheel & tire set-up. IMO a stock LS1 with headers, full exhaust, LS6 intake and a good tune would be perfect for an e30 that's properly set-up. I've seen tired LS1s with mods I've just listed making 350+ whp/350+ wtq. Couple that with some 2.93 gears, and it should be very controllable, and allow you to drop down into 2nd where most cars would be in mid 3rd gear.

[E30SPDFRK]

Having the 2 next to each other, I would say the LS1 is lighter than an m60. The M60 was tipping over my engine hoist, the LS had no issues. It's easier to slide around the garage floor too.

Not the most accurate measurement lol.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Last time I saw a thread about weights, an LS1 was 500lbs + ~100lbs for the trans, and the S50/M52 were closer to 400lbs.

http://bmwv8capri.yolasite.com/the-bmw-m60-v8.php According to this link the M60 is less than 400 lbs.

I'll weigh my S62 before it goes in the car, but I am EXTREMELY doubtful it's that light. That page is also wrong about the bores, for example (Silicon carbide coated? WTF?)

The weight you quote for the LS1 is grossly inaccurate. The long blocks for the aluminum engines are down around 350 lbs, 375-400ish dressed, depending on the accessory drive. Granted, the T56 is a large heavy transmission... but with a 5.4 ratio spread on the close ratio boxes and a 0.5:1 sixth gear, nothing BMW builds is even close.

A bare LS1 cylinder head is about 15 lbs. How much does a bare M60 cylinder head? 30+? The M60 also has four cams, 32 valves & hydraulic lifters, etc.
It is VERY VERY difficult for a DOHC engine to be lighter than a comparable pushrod engine. The relationship of weight should be pretty apparent to anyone who's seen a DOHC engine next to a pushrod engine. The pushrod engine looks tiny, despite having more than 1.5 litres more displacement.

There was also a comment on gas mileage... It's easy for V8's to get good gas mileage. A stock Corvette can pull down 30 mpg on the highway if driven carefully. The big engines just have to be geared correctly; hence the T56. The same principle applies to the 4.0... it gets significantly better mileage than the M30 3.5 litre six because of higher compression and taller gearing. The greater displacement, higher compression and better breathing give it enough low RPM torque to pull a tall gearset and get better mileage.

To the OP:
The thread has "lost focus" because there's NOTHING more to discuss. Pretty much all the relevant info had been presented in two pages. Garey and one or two other knowledgeable people who have actual experience with the actual engine have laid out the pros/cons. That's really all there is to it. Make your choice and do what you want.

[Jean]

If the LS1 has to sit futher forward vs. m6x, that would be one good reason to go with m6x imho of course.

M60 is wide, but it's short, and not having to deal with oil pan modification is a plus as well.